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Dr. Greer Hamilton joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss how she uses the arts to engage and involve communities around environmental justice research.Hamilton, a transitional postdoctoral fellow and incoming assistant professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work, is a current fellow in the Agents of Change program. She also talks about how she found her passion in social work, her activism on reproductive justice, tips on meaningfully involving communities in research, and some of her favorite spots in Detroit.The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.Listen below to our discussion with Hamilton, and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Spotify. Agents of Change in Environmental Justice · Greer Hamilton on arts-based environmental justice researchTranscript Brian BienkowskiHello and welcome back to the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast, a partnership between Environmental Health News and Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. I'm your host, Brian Bienkowski, editor of Agents of Change and senior editor at Environmental Health News. Welcome back to all of our regular listeners, and welcome to anybody new. We are here every two weeks talking to up-and-coming and established leaders in environmental justice. Please find us wherever you get your podcasts and please subscribe. Well, I am so excited for today's episode. Last month, our leadership team traveled to Philly and we met our fifth cohort fellows. And today we have our very first guest from this latest round of environmental justice rockstars that we are working with. today's guests is Dr. Greer Hamilton, a transitional Postdoctoral Fellow and incoming assistant professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work. Greer is doing fascinating work, she talks about how she got into social work, tips on meaningfully engaging communities in your research, what it means to be an art space researcher, and what changes she would like to see in the field of social work. And just a quick warning that we nerd out on Detroit a little bit here and there. But I'm sure you're all used to me doing that every time we have a Detroit-based guest. Enjoy. All right, I am super excited to be joined by our very first fellow from this cohort to join me on the podcast. Greer Hamilton. Greer, how are you doing today?Greer Hamilton I'm doing well. How are you?Brian Bienkowski I'm doing great. We won't talk about all the technical difficulties that we had before we connected now they don't need to know about that. So where are you today?Greer Hamilton I'm in Detroit, Michigan.Brian Bienkowski Detroit, Michigan. As all the listeners know, that is a place very near and dear to my heart. So I'm glad you're down there. In fact, when we met and you told me where you're at down there, I was looking around a little bit. And it's not too far from some of my old house. So I'm hoping to come visit you sometime. But you of course did not grow up in Detroit. You're there now for schooling and such. So you mostly grew up in New York state, from what I understand. So can you tell me a bit about your upbringing and where the interest in the environment and health came into your life?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so you're right, I mostly grew up on Long Island, in a town called Limbrick. But I also spent eight or so years of my childhood living in Alabama, where my mother's family is from. And to be honest, I think environment and health issues really didn't kind of come to the focus until college. And when I started taking a lot more interest in like thinking more about like, you know, the saying of like, "oh, well zip codes matter."– like, we're zip code is can like be a big proxy for like other things. Like that was kind of like the thing that like made me want to think more about environmental and health issues. And I know I mentioned this at like the retreat, but like, one of the things that kind of came full circle to me was about like my town Valley Stream on Long Island being a sundowntown. And how almost kind of short sighted like that zip code as proxy statement is because right zip codes aren't the things that matter. Right? Those other factors, right, like racism or other structural issues are the things that create, right, zip codes mattering. And so like when I kind of started making those connections, I began to become more interested in like, how does like a public park or like how to neighborhood, right? factor into like, our conversation about environment and health, and what do they do? You know, in terms of people's well being.Brian Bienkowski Can you explain to listeners what a sundown town is?Greer Hamilton Yeah, they were pretty prevalent between like, 1940 and 1960 throughout the country you know. Like, we talk poorly about the South, but like, they were in northern places like New York, and they were towns that were predominantly white. And after sundown, they were locations where non-white people were meant to not be and sometimes they were were murdered right for being in the town after sundown. Or they were chased out. But they're just like really, like harmful relics, right of that that time period.Brian Bienkowski You say relics, but men, if you think about the, you know, the 40s to the 60s, I mean, that was long ago, but it's not that long ago. I mean, that's grandparents and stuff, you know, that were around then so that is you know, and being in Detroit there I often think of the zip code that always gets thrown out is 48217 –I have it memorized because that is southwest Detroit – and they deal with some of the worst air in the city and in the state and in the country. So the there's been a lot written and talked about, not too far from you right there a zip code that is really determinant of people's health. So. So you went on to get a dual bachelor's and master's degree at the University of Buffalo. So what was it about social work as a career that spoke to you?Greer Hamilton Yeah, to be honest, my parents went through a divorce in high school, and I went to a social worker. And it was, at the time like thinking about going into pre med. I always kind of planned to be a medical doctor. And, but at the time, my life cannot imagine also doing that. And I was talking to my social worker about like, her job, and like, what were those opportunities, and she thought social work could be a good option for me, because it was still helping. And it's also a really broad profession, right? So I could still, you know, be interested in health and, and make a career out of that. And so that's kind of what like pushed me into social work and found it and then like, really developed like a love and appreciation for it.Brian Bienkowski That is so cool. That you know, in pursuing support for yourself, you not only found support, but a career, passion. That is that is really cool and turned something that was maybe difficult, into, you know, something that is very, it's very positive now, so very cool. I've been asking everybody this, what is a moment or event that has shaped your identity up to this point? I know, that's big and unwieldy.Greer Hamilton Yeah, I'm thinking about this. And I think in my master's program, one that sticks out to me was, I worked in a student-run health clinic on the east side of Buffalo, which is a predominantly Black part of the city. And in my experience, it was really interesting because, right, I had to reflect on my blackness, right. And like about also my privileges, because I grew up middle middle class, and we were working with people who were uninsured and low income. And, you know, they saw me as like a similar person to them. And also, they were things that really like I didn't share in terms of like lived experience. But also it like made me really want to, like pursue research, right, related to health. And so I think at that time, it was like, you know, about a year of working every Wednesday night and this clinic, but it was really cool to work with, like medical doctors and community members to like, try to figure out ways to improve their, their health and well being.Brian Bienkowski So this leads me really nicely in my next question, so before you returned to get your PhD was, which is where you're at now, you were, you know, working in social work in Buffalo, and I know this was meaningful, obviously, to you. But can you talk about why you wanted to get your PhD? why research spoke to you as something that you could maybe do more good, or, you know, additional good in this space?Greer Hamilton Yeah. Um, so after my master's, I went on to work at a nonprofit that was focused on actually increasing representation of non-white and low-income people in health professions, including social work and medicine. And then after that, did some work with a local foundation, doing community capacity building work with nonprofits. And in both of those experiences, both program managing a nonprofit and working with other nonprofits, I realized how there was like this weird cyclical kind of nature of like funding and research where nonprofits needed funding funders wanted research or evaluation. But those nonprofits didn't have either the staff person or the money, right to then go out and do research or evaluation. And so then it ended up putting large organizations that had that type of resource ahead, right, and then smaller, more grassroots organizations behind. And so I was like, "Oh, well, I like research will maybe this is something I could pursue, and then eventually come back with it to Buffalo or somewhere else and be that person who can provide that type of research or evaluation, support to organizations that they can do more," right? and get the funding they need in order to do the great work that they were doing.Brian Bienkowski So you went from one, Rust Belt city to another. And we talked about our love of rust belt cities, and I have a soft spot in my heart for Buffalo. I used to really like the Buffalo Bills football team when I was okay. And now you know, of course, the Lions because that's where I'm from, but it's just really cool to be working in those in those cities. I just find them fascinating, the kind of industrial history and all of that, and you mentioned something there that I want to just talk to you a little bit about and that's representation in healthcare settings, kind of having non-white representation. Can you talk about maybe an example or just why that's important, what that means to people to go into, you know, what can be kind of a vulnerable setting and see people like them or at least see people that represent their community?Greer Hamilton Yeah. I think like it also I think ties back to this my interest in like history and its relationship to health because I think, right, so much of like the current conversations about Black people in healthcare settings are about how medical doctors often don't like consider them capable of pain, right? And like that has kind of shown up in maternal mortality related situations recently, and how all of those things are like so directly tied back to our history of enslavement in this country. And so I think when people –and I can speak for myself– and I am able to find a Black doctor who is truly able to kind of understand that history, but also to be like, the one to ask more questions, right? And not assume that like, because I have a PhD or because of certain things that like maybe I'm not capable of experiencing certain issues, the person like to ask those questions just really matters. And so I think it's sometimes helpful to have a person who is like you in some way, and being your care provider or kind of being another person in your life.Brian Bienkowski So you've been doing a lot of your research is fascinating. And the way you put your research out is fascinating. And when I read your application, I think it's okay for me to admit that you are the one that I was telling the staff like, "No, we need her. She's, she's part of this cohort." I was really excited because you're doing a lot of cool stuff. And I want to get into that. But let's start first kind of take a step back and talk about the research that you're doing so. And you're also again, into unique ways of communicating it. So can you tell me about the research, you're co-leading looking at indoor air pollution in affordable housing and transportation pollution in the Boston area? What are you all doing and what have you found so far?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so our affordable housing project wrapped up last year was called Stainable air quality in affordable housing, and it was with engineering researchers at Tufts University. And I worked with them over the past four or five years. And then collectively, those engineers and Alok Shuhada and John Durant, and I applied for a grant with this group called Mystic River Watershed Association. And we have now a community-based air quality study in East Boston, Charlestown, Everett, and Malden to monitor the air quality over three years, and then to also work with residents to understand their own understandings of air quality, and how it's affected them. We chose those four communities because they are communities that are most overburdened by air pollution, because of where the highways are, the airport, and also they have the most are like they have a large population of non-white and linguistically-isolated people. And so they're often not represented in in this type of research. But should be, right? And so I think that's what we're trying to kind of do in our work. It's a community-engaged study that goes through 2026. And I hope to do all the community engaged research, which is, you know, exciting, and fun.Brian Bienkowski Yeah, before we get into some of that outreach, have there been Do you have findings yet? Have you looked at kind of air quality and seen, you know, bad things in the air compared to other neighborhoods and stuff? Are there any findings? Oh, yeah.Greer Hamilton Not from our project. But like Boston has done a lot of air quality research over the past 10 years or so. So there is some research like, I always forget the acronym but or like the full name, but it's called Cafe, there was a study done in Chinatown, right? where they found that people living in Chinatown, right were greatly affected by air quality. And also then didn't have like the resources to monitor or to do some of the mitigation strategies. So Chinatown has been doing a lot of research in those years following. For our project we started last April. So we have some preliminary survey data that finds that like a lot of people are concerned about air pollution, but either don't understand what are the sources of pollutants, or don't understand what to do to make improvements, right, whether that is by personal behavior changes, or advocacy work. And so that's kind of what we're hoping to do next.Brian Bienkowski We just did a big investigation, our newsroom with the Texas Tribune, looking at air quality in certain neighborhoods, certain Latino neighborhoods. And one of the things that we found was that even when there is data, it's not the first of all, it was often not in Spanish. And a lot of these are Spanish-speaking communities. And then you go to these websites, and I've been a reporter for a while and use the TRI from the EPA and stuff. And it's just a mess. I mean, you almost need a PhD to understand the data in the first place. So I think I really want to get at this kind of community engagement. And that's where a lot of your work comes in. So let's take this this study as a way to understand that, can you talk about your role in getting community members involved in the project, and making sure that they're engaged and aware of what you guys are finding and doing?Greer Hamilton Yeah. So the first kind of part of like our community engagement efforts were to develop a community advisory board. This is an 11 person board that is made up of young people under 18 and adults who live in those four communities. They are people who are not researchers, they are moms, they are nurses, they are students, right? And we really wanted to prioritize people who live there, and had lived there for a long time. And in order to kind of like contextualize the research that we're doing. We meet with them quarterly, and they give us guidance on kind of all facets of our work. We also have a community survey that is out, I'm in all four communities where we're asking people about, what is air quality to them? How do they know that poor air quality is occurring in their neighborhood? Is it smelling does it like look bad? and where are kind of the sites that they would want us to do follow up research in. And then we've also linked back to the language conversation you were just having have been really like intentional about making sure that our work is able to reach communities that we want. So we translate all of our work, whether that's the surveys to materials for like community meetings, into seven different languages including English, with the ones that are most represented by those four, so like Arabic, Haitian, Creole, Spanish, Portuguese, for example. And then we've also really been trying to, like build out like educational kind of workshop series for both our community advisory board members, but also residents. So we've been working with organizations to host like air quality one-on-one workshops, so they can like, start learning how to deconstruct the air quality data that we might be producing, and also to like, do like do DIY, kind of like air filtration types of projects. And then we're also beginning to offer your policy and advocacy trainings over the summer, so that our county advisory board members can then take that information back to their community, and really start to like work with other organizations around like, what are those strategies we want to implement? Knowing that policymakers right, have a lot of responsibility for regulating air pollution, whether it's like idling buses, or, you know, a truck, right, that stuck on the on the, on the 93, right? and so really kind of trying to work with residents around that. So those are some of the ways that we're thinking about community engagement.Brian Bienkowski That's really great. Because I mean, it takes everything from "Okay, let's find out what's in the air" all the way through to "Okay, now you are armed with this information here, we're going to train you to advocate for yourself." And I think making that holistic connection like that is, it's really exciting. It's really cool to hear about that. So what are some tips that you would have for other researchers who are trying to do this kind of community engagement, but are having trouble or finding people reluctant or busy? That's probably a big one, too. What are some tips you might have?Greer Hamilton I think you have to know that it's going to be slow from the very beginning. I work with people who wanted to communicate research, but don't want to invest the time. And you can't do this work without investing time. Time not only in like, learning what people's needs are, right? Like, let's say that like air pollution actually wasn't the top need for people like that means that we might have to shift right like kind of our priorities until we can get there. And it means like showing up to events that like you don't think are relevant to your work, right, like a block party, or you know, an event that's happening in a local college. And also listening, I think, like, my goal always is to do more listening than I am talking. So if a resident is telling me like something that matters to them, or something that like I've done that maybe was not in line of how they think it should be done. My job is not to like, talk down to them, right? Because I'm in a certain position and just to like, really listen and hear kind of what are the concerns that they're bringing up so that I can either shift what I'm doing or shift my thinking or approach around something.Brian Bienkowski And so you call yourself an arts-based researcher, which is, I love that title. I think it's really cool. And so can you give some examples of the ways that you used arts to engage with communities around environmental justice research and issues? And what are some artistic outlets or methods that you haven't used yet, but that you'd like to try?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so beginning of my PhD, I worked with students in the School of Arts to work on puppetry. So we made some stop motion work about green gentrification, which was kind of the environmental work that I was working on at that time. And it was really cool, because it was a really like disarming way of like talking about gentrification, which can be such a heavy topic. And people like, were able to kind of see like the horrors, right? of like, what happens when neighborhoods changed without people being able to participate in and then that shifted to my dissertation where I began to include more like visual arts and storytelling, so like doing like oral history collections, and like walking tours as a way to kind of engage people like, like in their total bodies around these topics. And then now, I have a small project that's working on a comic book and an animated film about transportation-related air pollution that we hope to kind of build out to like bleed into like, some curriculum for like K through 12 people in particular. But as a way to kind of start getting people to be aware of terms be aware of like air pollution and how it can like, affect them and even lead to like premature death, right? We want people to be more aware of like the health pieces. And you know, I think we've talked about this or I know we've talked about this, but like, also have interest in like soundscapes, and we'd love to, like think about how can we use soundscapes really to like traffic Navy, or just like the neat like nature, with electronic music or either like classic music, classical music. So it's like, uh, hopefully, within the next year, I can move into that. But those are some things I'm working on. But Fine Arts to be like a really great way to kind of communicate either environmental science or communicate like topics that people are thinking about, but maybe don't have like the language or are scared, right? to talk about it.Brian Bienkowski There's also I mean, we always hear growing up, or at least most of us did, that we all kind of learn differently. You know, some of us like to touch and get into stuff, some of us like to read or watch a YouTube video, whatever it is, and the you know, the soundscapes the one you mentioned, I am just very sensitive to audio, it really kind of resonates with me, it really... and in the kind of stuff that you're talking about, I actually, you know, I do some of that, like, you know, we talked about that. So I do think it's a really good way to kind of spread the message around in all these different ways. And who knows what's going to stick, right? Who knows what, how people learn and stuff? Where does that come from, where you always are the arts and kind of being creative, something that was prior to research, or did it kind of dovetail with some of this research that you're doing?Greer Hamilton It was prior to research, I like had a phase in like high school where I thought maybe I'll be a documentary filmmaker, and I took classes at NYU, they have a really great film school. And so it was like me, this will be what I will do, that did not obviously end up being what I'm doing. But it is a full circle thing to kind of come back to the arts now and include it in research.Brian Bienkowski And do you find that, you know, I don't know so much about your advisors, or how that works. But you know, I know just kind of historically, academia and stuff hasn't put a lot of, you know, it's like published in the journal and move on with your life kind of thing. Do you find that you're you're finding support, and that people are maybe kind of changing in that regard and open to kind of some of these different methods?Greer Hamilton I do. I do think that people are opening, becoming more open to arts. And that's why I ended up at University of Michigan. So they actually put out a call for arts-based research position last year when I was on the job market. And that was what drew me I was like, Oh, how cool it is to see a school like Michigan be interested, right in arts work. You know, I will also say that there are evolving flaws, right? Like they're like, right, because people have for so long thought of like research as like one thing and, and publishing as the only kind of output, right? Like, they are having to change kind of their own metrics to figure out how my work fits into that. But I will say they've been really supportive of like, encouraging of me, using the arts in my research. So I hope that more schools will, will do that.Brian Bienkowski And, you know, I have a brother in law, just as an example here, who wasn't really environmentally engaged. He's a tribal police officer up here. And he watched a documentary about I believe it was about dairy, I don't know what the documentary was about, he quit eating dairy. Like immediately, that was it like no more for him after he saw, I don't know if it was animal abuse, you know, some kind of animal rights issue. He's done. And it just spoke to me that like, oh, gosh, you can put all of the articles out in the world. And you can write all of the stories and send all of the tweets. But if you can find that kind of storytelling aspect, in this case, it was a really well-done documentary, I assume, I mean, it had a profound impact on his life. So I'm just such a, I'm just such a fan of this. And I'm really excited to see where you take some of this stuff. So, very cool. Another avenue that you're interested in, I know you have some different activist tendencies and things that you're very interested in. And I know reproductive justice is something that you're interested in, have engaged in, and it opened your eyes to the intersection of colonialism, capitalism, and environmental injustice, of course. So can you talk about your work in this space? And how it shows these issues as interconnected?Greer Hamilton Yeah, um, when I was in my master's program, that was actually my first research experience. I did abortion-access research with a professor, and this was before Roe vs. Wade was ended. And I learned like how profoundly like geographical location informs was people's access to abortion, right? So like people were having to travel really long, like distances in order to get an abortion, or like the wait times at the time. And I think for me, it really reinforced like the role of place in terms of health and environmental issues, that these are also the same communities that are likely to be overburdened or experienced overburdened by environmental toxins. And these are also the same people who are less likely to be able to access like a basic health care need, like an abortion. And I think it also was a good reminder that things like Roe versus Wade, which we you know, I think for a long time people kind of claimed was the ultimate dream of abortion rights actually had its flaws – like that people were not getting the care they needed. And so, you know, now that, you know, Roe versus Wade has been overturned, it's been even more kind of painful to see the ways in which geography informs people's or restricts people's right access to abortions, and how those geographical barriers are deeply tied right back to like colonialism and capitalism and racism, right, that those things were created intentionally right for people to not be able to access services that you need, whether it's like in their local area, or within a larger state. And so I'm hoping for more people to like, learn more about those barriers that people face, because it's not as easy as people think, to get an abortion, even in 2024. And even with like medical or abortion pills being readily available, right? those pills are also sometimes constrained right by location. So yeah, it's a issue that's really near and dear to my heart. And I'm glad to have seen over the past couple of years, people learn more about abortion restrictions in the country, and reproductive justice.Brian Bienkowski And it's another one of those really frustrating issues, I should say, as we speak right now, you know, Arizona just turned back the clock this week in such a archaic way, on this on this very issue and, and Florida, right. And it's one of those things, it's kind of like gun rights, where it's so frustrating that when you actually look at the, the electorate, you know, the it's not really that controversial of an issue, there really is kind of mostly broad support for this. And to see how our, you know, the system has been perverted in a way that allows people to make decisions for others is, is really something. But I think you're right, you have seen kind of a groundswell of awareness, if nothing else, after Roe fell. So I guess we will see what happens. Do you still is this work that you still engage in now that you're in Detroit and in Michigan? Are you too busy? No.Greer Hamilton Um, so I've been on the board of boards of abortion funds for the past couple years first of Eastern Massachusetts abortion fund. But now that I'm in Detroit, I'm with the Midwest Access Coalition, which is a practical support fund, actually, which people may not know about. But, um, practical support is to tends to be hotels, airfare, childcare, you know, food support, like the other things, right that, that people will require in order to access an abortion. And so I'm really proud of the work that Midwest Access Coalition does. And I'm just proud to be a board member. And also I will just put a plug it is funding season, it is the peer-to-peer fundraising campaign for abortion funds across the country and some international ones. But if you go to nn, like Nancy, a f.org, you will find or you should be able to find your local abortion fund. And they likely are having some sort of event or a fundraising effort for the next month or so. So a great time to give because people's money are drying up. And now that people have decided that the Roe decision no longer takes precedent.Brian Bienkowski Thank you so much for that it is a great time for people to get involved in this, especially, you know, as we head into another election season, and this is top of mind. Hopefully everybody can check that out. So when it comes to social work writ large here, what would you like to see change? I mean, I get the sense that you're you're wanting to do things a little bit differently than have been done historically. So what would you like to see the field change? And how do you see yourself as part of that change?Greer Hamilton Yeah, as much as I love social work, I find it to be a pretty a-historic profession. I think it often forgets like, context matters in terms of like, the social issues that we're working on. And so for me, I really try to include history as much as I can in my work. And so we'd love to see more social workers like integrating and interrogating our history and its relationship to other things. But also, I think we're sometimes reactionary in terms of our engagement with social action. Sometimes it is right like other people who start doing social actions. And then social work is like, "Oh, hey, actually, we should care about it." Environmental issues, I think being an example of this. And so would love to see more social workers just like less scared, right of what other social professionals right are thinking, counselor social work, and to be more, be more open right to like what what social it can be and the issues that we should be focused on. And to, like, take that risk of, of just being more vocal and more active in issues that matter to you, but also to your community.Brian Bienkowski I spoke to, I'm forgetting the fellow right now. But she was a city in this kind of City Planning and had a very similar response that there's, there's a tendency to want to stick within the what the professional parameters have always been, instead of kind of integrating yourself in the community. And I think there's I think there's definitely some lessons there. So this has been a largely positive conversation. But I know environmental justice is not positive all the time, even though we're seeing some progress. So what are you optimistic about?Greer Hamilton I am really proud of the students that are organizing at University of Michigan where I'm at, there's been a lot of like, attempt to like stop them from organizing, but they're making really crucial connections, right to militarization and militarization and how it relates to like environmental issues or public health issues. And I'm just like always deeply proud of young adults who are willing to kind of take risk, even when there are like potential harms, not only to like their physical body, but also to their ability to graduate. And so I think that makes me really optimistic.Brian Bienkowski Excellent. Well, now we get to do some of the fun stuff before we get you out of here. So I have three rapid-fire questions, and you can just give me one word, or a phrase. My favorite hangout in Detroit isGreer Hamilton Kitab coffee.Brian Bienkowski Oh, tell me about it. Where is it at?Greer Hamilton They may have on Hamtramck but they also just built one in Midtown. It's an Arab on coffee shop that just is doing really cool community based work and also has really good coffee.Brian Bienkowski So I think I've seen the one in Hamtramck is it wood paneled?Greer Hamilton Yeah, in Midtown too. It's just Edmonton. So okay.Brian Bienkowski Okay, so we're getting away in the weeds here. And you can tune out listeners for a second. But I've seen the one in Hamtramck because it's on my walk when I walk to cafe 1923 which is my coffee shop that I go to down there. So I will have to definitely try a new one. If I could have dinner with anyone in this can be living or past it would beGreer Hamilton Spike LeeBrian Bienkowski that's a fun one. My go to comfort musician or albumGreer Hamilton Lianne La Havas.Brian Bienkowski I don't know this one. Tell me about tell me about this person.Greer Hamilton She's from London. She has a really beautiful soulful voice and, and she got me through the pandemic. So it'sBrian Bienkowski High praise. Excellent. Well, I will definitely check her out. I've got two recommendations from this. So Greer, this has been a whole lot of fun. I'm really glad we got to connect. And hanging out with you in Philly. It was just, it was so much fun. There's never enough time at those retreats with everybody. And my last question before we get you out of here is what is the last book that you read for fun?Greer Hamilton The City of Dispossession, by Kyle T. Mays, you would also really like it. It's about indigenous andBblack history of Detroit. And just a really good read. Awesome.Brian Bienkowski Well, I'm gonna give a short plug for Book Suey is the bookstore in Hamtramck where I tried to get all my books, even though I live so far away from there now, but they carry a whole local section. So I'm hoping and it's in there next time I'm down there. And Greer, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for your time, and I will talk to you soon.Greer Hamilton Take care.

Dr. Greer Hamilton joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss how she uses the arts to engage and involve communities around environmental justice research.Hamilton, a transitional postdoctoral fellow and incoming assistant professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work, is a current fellow in the Agents of Change program. She also talks about how she found her passion in social work, her activism on reproductive justice, tips on meaningfully involving communities in research, and some of her favorite spots in Detroit.The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.Listen below to our discussion with Hamilton, and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Spotify. Agents of Change in Environmental Justice · Greer Hamilton on arts-based environmental justice researchTranscript Brian BienkowskiHello and welcome back to the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast, a partnership between Environmental Health News and Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health. I'm your host, Brian Bienkowski, editor of Agents of Change and senior editor at Environmental Health News. Welcome back to all of our regular listeners, and welcome to anybody new. We are here every two weeks talking to up-and-coming and established leaders in environmental justice. Please find us wherever you get your podcasts and please subscribe. Well, I am so excited for today's episode. Last month, our leadership team traveled to Philly and we met our fifth cohort fellows. And today we have our very first guest from this latest round of environmental justice rockstars that we are working with. today's guests is Dr. Greer Hamilton, a transitional Postdoctoral Fellow and incoming assistant professor at the University of Michigan School of Social Work. Greer is doing fascinating work, she talks about how she got into social work, tips on meaningfully engaging communities in your research, what it means to be an art space researcher, and what changes she would like to see in the field of social work. And just a quick warning that we nerd out on Detroit a little bit here and there. But I'm sure you're all used to me doing that every time we have a Detroit-based guest. Enjoy. All right, I am super excited to be joined by our very first fellow from this cohort to join me on the podcast. Greer Hamilton. Greer, how are you doing today?Greer Hamilton I'm doing well. How are you?Brian Bienkowski I'm doing great. We won't talk about all the technical difficulties that we had before we connected now they don't need to know about that. So where are you today?Greer Hamilton I'm in Detroit, Michigan.Brian Bienkowski Detroit, Michigan. As all the listeners know, that is a place very near and dear to my heart. So I'm glad you're down there. In fact, when we met and you told me where you're at down there, I was looking around a little bit. And it's not too far from some of my old house. So I'm hoping to come visit you sometime. But you of course did not grow up in Detroit. You're there now for schooling and such. So you mostly grew up in New York state, from what I understand. So can you tell me a bit about your upbringing and where the interest in the environment and health came into your life?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so you're right, I mostly grew up on Long Island, in a town called Limbrick. But I also spent eight or so years of my childhood living in Alabama, where my mother's family is from. And to be honest, I think environment and health issues really didn't kind of come to the focus until college. And when I started taking a lot more interest in like thinking more about like, you know, the saying of like, "oh, well zip codes matter."– like, we're zip code is can like be a big proxy for like other things. Like that was kind of like the thing that like made me want to think more about environmental and health issues. And I know I mentioned this at like the retreat, but like, one of the things that kind of came full circle to me was about like my town Valley Stream on Long Island being a sundowntown. And how almost kind of short sighted like that zip code as proxy statement is because right zip codes aren't the things that matter. Right? Those other factors, right, like racism or other structural issues are the things that create, right, zip codes mattering. And so like when I kind of started making those connections, I began to become more interested in like, how does like a public park or like how to neighborhood, right? factor into like, our conversation about environment and health, and what do they do? You know, in terms of people's well being.Brian Bienkowski Can you explain to listeners what a sundown town is?Greer Hamilton Yeah, they were pretty prevalent between like, 1940 and 1960 throughout the country you know. Like, we talk poorly about the South, but like, they were in northern places like New York, and they were towns that were predominantly white. And after sundown, they were locations where non-white people were meant to not be and sometimes they were were murdered right for being in the town after sundown. Or they were chased out. But they're just like really, like harmful relics, right of that that time period.Brian Bienkowski You say relics, but men, if you think about the, you know, the 40s to the 60s, I mean, that was long ago, but it's not that long ago. I mean, that's grandparents and stuff, you know, that were around then so that is you know, and being in Detroit there I often think of the zip code that always gets thrown out is 48217 –I have it memorized because that is southwest Detroit – and they deal with some of the worst air in the city and in the state and in the country. So the there's been a lot written and talked about, not too far from you right there a zip code that is really determinant of people's health. So. So you went on to get a dual bachelor's and master's degree at the University of Buffalo. So what was it about social work as a career that spoke to you?Greer Hamilton Yeah, to be honest, my parents went through a divorce in high school, and I went to a social worker. And it was, at the time like thinking about going into pre med. I always kind of planned to be a medical doctor. And, but at the time, my life cannot imagine also doing that. And I was talking to my social worker about like, her job, and like, what were those opportunities, and she thought social work could be a good option for me, because it was still helping. And it's also a really broad profession, right? So I could still, you know, be interested in health and, and make a career out of that. And so that's kind of what like pushed me into social work and found it and then like, really developed like a love and appreciation for it.Brian Bienkowski That is so cool. That you know, in pursuing support for yourself, you not only found support, but a career, passion. That is that is really cool and turned something that was maybe difficult, into, you know, something that is very, it's very positive now, so very cool. I've been asking everybody this, what is a moment or event that has shaped your identity up to this point? I know, that's big and unwieldy.Greer Hamilton Yeah, I'm thinking about this. And I think in my master's program, one that sticks out to me was, I worked in a student-run health clinic on the east side of Buffalo, which is a predominantly Black part of the city. And in my experience, it was really interesting because, right, I had to reflect on my blackness, right. And like about also my privileges, because I grew up middle middle class, and we were working with people who were uninsured and low income. And, you know, they saw me as like a similar person to them. And also, they were things that really like I didn't share in terms of like lived experience. But also it like made me really want to, like pursue research, right, related to health. And so I think at that time, it was like, you know, about a year of working every Wednesday night and this clinic, but it was really cool to work with, like medical doctors and community members to like, try to figure out ways to improve their, their health and well being.Brian Bienkowski So this leads me really nicely in my next question, so before you returned to get your PhD was, which is where you're at now, you were, you know, working in social work in Buffalo, and I know this was meaningful, obviously, to you. But can you talk about why you wanted to get your PhD? why research spoke to you as something that you could maybe do more good, or, you know, additional good in this space?Greer Hamilton Yeah. Um, so after my master's, I went on to work at a nonprofit that was focused on actually increasing representation of non-white and low-income people in health professions, including social work and medicine. And then after that, did some work with a local foundation, doing community capacity building work with nonprofits. And in both of those experiences, both program managing a nonprofit and working with other nonprofits, I realized how there was like this weird cyclical kind of nature of like funding and research where nonprofits needed funding funders wanted research or evaluation. But those nonprofits didn't have either the staff person or the money, right to then go out and do research or evaluation. And so then it ended up putting large organizations that had that type of resource ahead, right, and then smaller, more grassroots organizations behind. And so I was like, "Oh, well, I like research will maybe this is something I could pursue, and then eventually come back with it to Buffalo or somewhere else and be that person who can provide that type of research or evaluation, support to organizations that they can do more," right? and get the funding they need in order to do the great work that they were doing.Brian Bienkowski So you went from one, Rust Belt city to another. And we talked about our love of rust belt cities, and I have a soft spot in my heart for Buffalo. I used to really like the Buffalo Bills football team when I was okay. And now you know, of course, the Lions because that's where I'm from, but it's just really cool to be working in those in those cities. I just find them fascinating, the kind of industrial history and all of that, and you mentioned something there that I want to just talk to you a little bit about and that's representation in healthcare settings, kind of having non-white representation. Can you talk about maybe an example or just why that's important, what that means to people to go into, you know, what can be kind of a vulnerable setting and see people like them or at least see people that represent their community?Greer Hamilton Yeah. I think like it also I think ties back to this my interest in like history and its relationship to health because I think, right, so much of like the current conversations about Black people in healthcare settings are about how medical doctors often don't like consider them capable of pain, right? And like that has kind of shown up in maternal mortality related situations recently, and how all of those things are like so directly tied back to our history of enslavement in this country. And so I think when people –and I can speak for myself– and I am able to find a Black doctor who is truly able to kind of understand that history, but also to be like, the one to ask more questions, right? And not assume that like, because I have a PhD or because of certain things that like maybe I'm not capable of experiencing certain issues, the person like to ask those questions just really matters. And so I think it's sometimes helpful to have a person who is like you in some way, and being your care provider or kind of being another person in your life.Brian Bienkowski So you've been doing a lot of your research is fascinating. And the way you put your research out is fascinating. And when I read your application, I think it's okay for me to admit that you are the one that I was telling the staff like, "No, we need her. She's, she's part of this cohort." I was really excited because you're doing a lot of cool stuff. And I want to get into that. But let's start first kind of take a step back and talk about the research that you're doing so. And you're also again, into unique ways of communicating it. So can you tell me about the research, you're co-leading looking at indoor air pollution in affordable housing and transportation pollution in the Boston area? What are you all doing and what have you found so far?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so our affordable housing project wrapped up last year was called Stainable air quality in affordable housing, and it was with engineering researchers at Tufts University. And I worked with them over the past four or five years. And then collectively, those engineers and Alok Shuhada and John Durant, and I applied for a grant with this group called Mystic River Watershed Association. And we have now a community-based air quality study in East Boston, Charlestown, Everett, and Malden to monitor the air quality over three years, and then to also work with residents to understand their own understandings of air quality, and how it's affected them. We chose those four communities because they are communities that are most overburdened by air pollution, because of where the highways are, the airport, and also they have the most are like they have a large population of non-white and linguistically-isolated people. And so they're often not represented in in this type of research. But should be, right? And so I think that's what we're trying to kind of do in our work. It's a community-engaged study that goes through 2026. And I hope to do all the community engaged research, which is, you know, exciting, and fun.Brian Bienkowski Yeah, before we get into some of that outreach, have there been Do you have findings yet? Have you looked at kind of air quality and seen, you know, bad things in the air compared to other neighborhoods and stuff? Are there any findings? Oh, yeah.Greer Hamilton Not from our project. But like Boston has done a lot of air quality research over the past 10 years or so. So there is some research like, I always forget the acronym but or like the full name, but it's called Cafe, there was a study done in Chinatown, right? where they found that people living in Chinatown, right were greatly affected by air quality. And also then didn't have like the resources to monitor or to do some of the mitigation strategies. So Chinatown has been doing a lot of research in those years following. For our project we started last April. So we have some preliminary survey data that finds that like a lot of people are concerned about air pollution, but either don't understand what are the sources of pollutants, or don't understand what to do to make improvements, right, whether that is by personal behavior changes, or advocacy work. And so that's kind of what we're hoping to do next.Brian Bienkowski We just did a big investigation, our newsroom with the Texas Tribune, looking at air quality in certain neighborhoods, certain Latino neighborhoods. And one of the things that we found was that even when there is data, it's not the first of all, it was often not in Spanish. And a lot of these are Spanish-speaking communities. And then you go to these websites, and I've been a reporter for a while and use the TRI from the EPA and stuff. And it's just a mess. I mean, you almost need a PhD to understand the data in the first place. So I think I really want to get at this kind of community engagement. And that's where a lot of your work comes in. So let's take this this study as a way to understand that, can you talk about your role in getting community members involved in the project, and making sure that they're engaged and aware of what you guys are finding and doing?Greer Hamilton Yeah. So the first kind of part of like our community engagement efforts were to develop a community advisory board. This is an 11 person board that is made up of young people under 18 and adults who live in those four communities. They are people who are not researchers, they are moms, they are nurses, they are students, right? And we really wanted to prioritize people who live there, and had lived there for a long time. And in order to kind of like contextualize the research that we're doing. We meet with them quarterly, and they give us guidance on kind of all facets of our work. We also have a community survey that is out, I'm in all four communities where we're asking people about, what is air quality to them? How do they know that poor air quality is occurring in their neighborhood? Is it smelling does it like look bad? and where are kind of the sites that they would want us to do follow up research in. And then we've also linked back to the language conversation you were just having have been really like intentional about making sure that our work is able to reach communities that we want. So we translate all of our work, whether that's the surveys to materials for like community meetings, into seven different languages including English, with the ones that are most represented by those four, so like Arabic, Haitian, Creole, Spanish, Portuguese, for example. And then we've also really been trying to, like build out like educational kind of workshop series for both our community advisory board members, but also residents. So we've been working with organizations to host like air quality one-on-one workshops, so they can like, start learning how to deconstruct the air quality data that we might be producing, and also to like, do like do DIY, kind of like air filtration types of projects. And then we're also beginning to offer your policy and advocacy trainings over the summer, so that our county advisory board members can then take that information back to their community, and really start to like work with other organizations around like, what are those strategies we want to implement? Knowing that policymakers right, have a lot of responsibility for regulating air pollution, whether it's like idling buses, or, you know, a truck, right, that stuck on the on the, on the 93, right? and so really kind of trying to work with residents around that. So those are some of the ways that we're thinking about community engagement.Brian Bienkowski That's really great. Because I mean, it takes everything from "Okay, let's find out what's in the air" all the way through to "Okay, now you are armed with this information here, we're going to train you to advocate for yourself." And I think making that holistic connection like that is, it's really exciting. It's really cool to hear about that. So what are some tips that you would have for other researchers who are trying to do this kind of community engagement, but are having trouble or finding people reluctant or busy? That's probably a big one, too. What are some tips you might have?Greer Hamilton I think you have to know that it's going to be slow from the very beginning. I work with people who wanted to communicate research, but don't want to invest the time. And you can't do this work without investing time. Time not only in like, learning what people's needs are, right? Like, let's say that like air pollution actually wasn't the top need for people like that means that we might have to shift right like kind of our priorities until we can get there. And it means like showing up to events that like you don't think are relevant to your work, right, like a block party, or you know, an event that's happening in a local college. And also listening, I think, like, my goal always is to do more listening than I am talking. So if a resident is telling me like something that matters to them, or something that like I've done that maybe was not in line of how they think it should be done. My job is not to like, talk down to them, right? Because I'm in a certain position and just to like, really listen and hear kind of what are the concerns that they're bringing up so that I can either shift what I'm doing or shift my thinking or approach around something.Brian Bienkowski And so you call yourself an arts-based researcher, which is, I love that title. I think it's really cool. And so can you give some examples of the ways that you used arts to engage with communities around environmental justice research and issues? And what are some artistic outlets or methods that you haven't used yet, but that you'd like to try?Greer Hamilton Yeah, so beginning of my PhD, I worked with students in the School of Arts to work on puppetry. So we made some stop motion work about green gentrification, which was kind of the environmental work that I was working on at that time. And it was really cool, because it was a really like disarming way of like talking about gentrification, which can be such a heavy topic. And people like, were able to kind of see like the horrors, right? of like, what happens when neighborhoods changed without people being able to participate in and then that shifted to my dissertation where I began to include more like visual arts and storytelling, so like doing like oral history collections, and like walking tours as a way to kind of engage people like, like in their total bodies around these topics. And then now, I have a small project that's working on a comic book and an animated film about transportation-related air pollution that we hope to kind of build out to like bleed into like, some curriculum for like K through 12 people in particular. But as a way to kind of start getting people to be aware of terms be aware of like air pollution and how it can like, affect them and even lead to like premature death, right? We want people to be more aware of like the health pieces. And you know, I think we've talked about this or I know we've talked about this, but like, also have interest in like soundscapes, and we'd love to, like think about how can we use soundscapes really to like traffic Navy, or just like the neat like nature, with electronic music or either like classic music, classical music. So it's like, uh, hopefully, within the next year, I can move into that. But those are some things I'm working on. But Fine Arts to be like a really great way to kind of communicate either environmental science or communicate like topics that people are thinking about, but maybe don't have like the language or are scared, right? to talk about it.Brian Bienkowski There's also I mean, we always hear growing up, or at least most of us did, that we all kind of learn differently. You know, some of us like to touch and get into stuff, some of us like to read or watch a YouTube video, whatever it is, and the you know, the soundscapes the one you mentioned, I am just very sensitive to audio, it really kind of resonates with me, it really... and in the kind of stuff that you're talking about, I actually, you know, I do some of that, like, you know, we talked about that. So I do think it's a really good way to kind of spread the message around in all these different ways. And who knows what's going to stick, right? Who knows what, how people learn and stuff? Where does that come from, where you always are the arts and kind of being creative, something that was prior to research, or did it kind of dovetail with some of this research that you're doing?Greer Hamilton It was prior to research, I like had a phase in like high school where I thought maybe I'll be a documentary filmmaker, and I took classes at NYU, they have a really great film school. And so it was like me, this will be what I will do, that did not obviously end up being what I'm doing. But it is a full circle thing to kind of come back to the arts now and include it in research.Brian Bienkowski And do you find that, you know, I don't know so much about your advisors, or how that works. But you know, I know just kind of historically, academia and stuff hasn't put a lot of, you know, it's like published in the journal and move on with your life kind of thing. Do you find that you're you're finding support, and that people are maybe kind of changing in that regard and open to kind of some of these different methods?Greer Hamilton I do. I do think that people are opening, becoming more open to arts. And that's why I ended up at University of Michigan. So they actually put out a call for arts-based research position last year when I was on the job market. And that was what drew me I was like, Oh, how cool it is to see a school like Michigan be interested, right in arts work. You know, I will also say that there are evolving flaws, right? Like they're like, right, because people have for so long thought of like research as like one thing and, and publishing as the only kind of output, right? Like, they are having to change kind of their own metrics to figure out how my work fits into that. But I will say they've been really supportive of like, encouraging of me, using the arts in my research. So I hope that more schools will, will do that.Brian Bienkowski And, you know, I have a brother in law, just as an example here, who wasn't really environmentally engaged. He's a tribal police officer up here. And he watched a documentary about I believe it was about dairy, I don't know what the documentary was about, he quit eating dairy. Like immediately, that was it like no more for him after he saw, I don't know if it was animal abuse, you know, some kind of animal rights issue. He's done. And it just spoke to me that like, oh, gosh, you can put all of the articles out in the world. And you can write all of the stories and send all of the tweets. But if you can find that kind of storytelling aspect, in this case, it was a really well-done documentary, I assume, I mean, it had a profound impact on his life. So I'm just such a, I'm just such a fan of this. And I'm really excited to see where you take some of this stuff. So, very cool. Another avenue that you're interested in, I know you have some different activist tendencies and things that you're very interested in. And I know reproductive justice is something that you're interested in, have engaged in, and it opened your eyes to the intersection of colonialism, capitalism, and environmental injustice, of course. So can you talk about your work in this space? And how it shows these issues as interconnected?Greer Hamilton Yeah, um, when I was in my master's program, that was actually my first research experience. I did abortion-access research with a professor, and this was before Roe vs. Wade was ended. And I learned like how profoundly like geographical location informs was people's access to abortion, right? So like people were having to travel really long, like distances in order to get an abortion, or like the wait times at the time. And I think for me, it really reinforced like the role of place in terms of health and environmental issues, that these are also the same communities that are likely to be overburdened or experienced overburdened by environmental toxins. And these are also the same people who are less likely to be able to access like a basic health care need, like an abortion. And I think it also was a good reminder that things like Roe versus Wade, which we you know, I think for a long time people kind of claimed was the ultimate dream of abortion rights actually had its flaws – like that people were not getting the care they needed. And so, you know, now that, you know, Roe versus Wade has been overturned, it's been even more kind of painful to see the ways in which geography informs people's or restricts people's right access to abortions, and how those geographical barriers are deeply tied right back to like colonialism and capitalism and racism, right, that those things were created intentionally right for people to not be able to access services that you need, whether it's like in their local area, or within a larger state. And so I'm hoping for more people to like, learn more about those barriers that people face, because it's not as easy as people think, to get an abortion, even in 2024. And even with like medical or abortion pills being readily available, right? those pills are also sometimes constrained right by location. So yeah, it's a issue that's really near and dear to my heart. And I'm glad to have seen over the past couple of years, people learn more about abortion restrictions in the country, and reproductive justice.Brian Bienkowski And it's another one of those really frustrating issues, I should say, as we speak right now, you know, Arizona just turned back the clock this week in such a archaic way, on this on this very issue and, and Florida, right. And it's one of those things, it's kind of like gun rights, where it's so frustrating that when you actually look at the, the electorate, you know, the it's not really that controversial of an issue, there really is kind of mostly broad support for this. And to see how our, you know, the system has been perverted in a way that allows people to make decisions for others is, is really something. But I think you're right, you have seen kind of a groundswell of awareness, if nothing else, after Roe fell. So I guess we will see what happens. Do you still is this work that you still engage in now that you're in Detroit and in Michigan? Are you too busy? No.Greer Hamilton Um, so I've been on the board of boards of abortion funds for the past couple years first of Eastern Massachusetts abortion fund. But now that I'm in Detroit, I'm with the Midwest Access Coalition, which is a practical support fund, actually, which people may not know about. But, um, practical support is to tends to be hotels, airfare, childcare, you know, food support, like the other things, right that, that people will require in order to access an abortion. And so I'm really proud of the work that Midwest Access Coalition does. And I'm just proud to be a board member. And also I will just put a plug it is funding season, it is the peer-to-peer fundraising campaign for abortion funds across the country and some international ones. But if you go to nn, like Nancy, a f.org, you will find or you should be able to find your local abortion fund. And they likely are having some sort of event or a fundraising effort for the next month or so. So a great time to give because people's money are drying up. And now that people have decided that the Roe decision no longer takes precedent.Brian Bienkowski Thank you so much for that it is a great time for people to get involved in this, especially, you know, as we head into another election season, and this is top of mind. Hopefully everybody can check that out. So when it comes to social work writ large here, what would you like to see change? I mean, I get the sense that you're you're wanting to do things a little bit differently than have been done historically. So what would you like to see the field change? And how do you see yourself as part of that change?Greer Hamilton Yeah, as much as I love social work, I find it to be a pretty a-historic profession. I think it often forgets like, context matters in terms of like, the social issues that we're working on. And so for me, I really try to include history as much as I can in my work. And so we'd love to see more social workers like integrating and interrogating our history and its relationship to other things. But also, I think we're sometimes reactionary in terms of our engagement with social action. Sometimes it is right like other people who start doing social actions. And then social work is like, "Oh, hey, actually, we should care about it." Environmental issues, I think being an example of this. And so would love to see more social workers just like less scared, right of what other social professionals right are thinking, counselor social work, and to be more, be more open right to like what what social it can be and the issues that we should be focused on. And to, like, take that risk of, of just being more vocal and more active in issues that matter to you, but also to your community.Brian Bienkowski I spoke to, I'm forgetting the fellow right now. But she was a city in this kind of City Planning and had a very similar response that there's, there's a tendency to want to stick within the what the professional parameters have always been, instead of kind of integrating yourself in the community. And I think there's I think there's definitely some lessons there. So this has been a largely positive conversation. But I know environmental justice is not positive all the time, even though we're seeing some progress. So what are you optimistic about?Greer Hamilton I am really proud of the students that are organizing at University of Michigan where I'm at, there's been a lot of like, attempt to like stop them from organizing, but they're making really crucial connections, right to militarization and militarization and how it relates to like environmental issues or public health issues. And I'm just like always deeply proud of young adults who are willing to kind of take risk, even when there are like potential harms, not only to like their physical body, but also to their ability to graduate. And so I think that makes me really optimistic.Brian Bienkowski Excellent. Well, now we get to do some of the fun stuff before we get you out of here. So I have three rapid-fire questions, and you can just give me one word, or a phrase. My favorite hangout in Detroit isGreer Hamilton Kitab coffee.Brian Bienkowski Oh, tell me about it. Where is it at?Greer Hamilton They may have on Hamtramck but they also just built one in Midtown. It's an Arab on coffee shop that just is doing really cool community based work and also has really good coffee.Brian Bienkowski So I think I've seen the one in Hamtramck is it wood paneled?Greer Hamilton Yeah, in Midtown too. It's just Edmonton. So okay.Brian Bienkowski Okay, so we're getting away in the weeds here. And you can tune out listeners for a second. But I've seen the one in Hamtramck because it's on my walk when I walk to cafe 1923 which is my coffee shop that I go to down there. So I will have to definitely try a new one. If I could have dinner with anyone in this can be living or past it would beGreer Hamilton Spike LeeBrian Bienkowski that's a fun one. My go to comfort musician or albumGreer Hamilton Lianne La Havas.Brian Bienkowski I don't know this one. Tell me about tell me about this person.Greer Hamilton She's from London. She has a really beautiful soulful voice and, and she got me through the pandemic. So it'sBrian Bienkowski High praise. Excellent. Well, I will definitely check her out. I've got two recommendations from this. So Greer, this has been a whole lot of fun. I'm really glad we got to connect. And hanging out with you in Philly. It was just, it was so much fun. There's never enough time at those retreats with everybody. And my last question before we get you out of here is what is the last book that you read for fun?Greer Hamilton The City of Dispossession, by Kyle T. Mays, you would also really like it. It's about indigenous andBblack history of Detroit. And just a really good read. Awesome.Brian Bienkowski Well, I'm gonna give a short plug for Book Suey is the bookstore in Hamtramck where I tried to get all my books, even though I live so far away from there now, but they carry a whole local section. So I'm hoping and it's in there next time I'm down there. And Greer, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for your time, and I will talk to you soon.Greer Hamilton Take care.