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Mokshda Kaul joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss the clean energy transition and how policymakers and other leaders can avoid mistakes of the past.Kaul, a Ph.D. candidate in the sustainable energy program at the School of Sustainability at Arizona State University, also talks about the crucial role of coalitions in a just energy transition.The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.Listen below to our discussion with Kaul and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Spotify.Agents of Change in Environmental Justice · Mokshda Kaul on making the clean energy transition work for allTranscript Brian BienkowskiMoksha, how are you doing today?Mokshda Kaul I'm good. How are you, Brian?Brian Bienkowski I'm doing wonderful. I'm a little hot. I turned off my fan so we don't have the background noise. And where are you today?Mokshda Kaul So speaking of hot, I'm in Arizona, so I'm in Phoenix, and I've also turned my fan off. And luckily, my AC is working, so I'm not going to explode into flames, which is always possible in Arizona. So, you know, just saying. But yeah, that's where I am right now, and I'm just really excited to do this actually.Brian Bienkowski Well, I am really excited to talk to you too. Your research and your path there, to me, are fascinating. So I'm so excited to have you on the program. So as you probably know, I like to start at the beginning. So tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Of course, you're not from Arizona originally.Mokshda Kaul yeah. So I moved here for my PhD in 2020 and that was in the middle of the pandemic, by the way, which was quite jarring. There were only those bubble flights operating from the US to India, and it was terrifying for multiple different reasons. And I got got here, and I was again stuck in a room. Instead of being stuck in a room in India, I was stuck in a room in Phoenix. Nothing changed in my life, honestly speaking. But in terms of, like, where I'm from, and coming to Arizona, I'm from Mumbai, which is I think, the world's most densely populated city. So I'm used to having people step on my toes while I'm walking. And I came to Arizona, and I was like, there are no people here. What's wrong with this place? So that was number one for me. And, I mean, being raised in Mumbai, India is a country with so many multitudes. And I'm born and raised in Mumbai, but I come from Kashmir, and I spent my summer vacations, and, like a lot of my time, even, like a few years in my childhood, actually, in this smaller town near Kashmir called Jammu, which is, I would say, like now it's a tier-two city, but back then, maybe it was like a tier-three city, and it was very jarring the difference between Mumbai and Jammu, because Mumbai is the financial capital of India. So you have every amenity you can think of. You have round the clock electricity, and of course, within Mumbai also, we have terrible infrastructure problems, but that's a different story. But juxtaposing that against Jammu, where you'd have blackouts in the middle of summer heat and like summer, like the Phoenix summer, and I used to find it so uncomfortable to sort of when I'd come back to Mumbai to have that feeling of, wait, what is the thing that the people here are doing right, that they don't have to have these blackouts? Like, what? What is it like? Why is there this element of chance and privilege that's deciding who gets to experience these things or not? And I think I was just always very irritated and uncomfortable by it, and I was benefiting from it for all intents and purposes.Brian Bienkowski And so you mentioned that juxtaposition of Kashmir and Mumbai, and I'm wondering if that was kind of where you became aware of the concept of environmental justice, or if that was or if it was something else.Mokshda Kaul So I mean, I'm really glad you point that out, but that's exactly it. I would find it very unsettling. And it's just, if you look at it, I mean, at the same time as I was growing up, I was reading like, Rawlsian theories of justice and trying to understand, like, who decides, who decides that somebody gets something just by virtue of the fact that they were born in a particular city? Like, I don't have anything to do with the fact that I was born in Mumbai. Okay, and I think that the unsettled feeling never left me, and I think that's what they call acknowledging your privilege. And I was just always affected by it. And also in addition to this, India has lot of issues on the grounds of caste and class, and growing up in a space like that, where you... especially in Mumbai, where it's so cosmopolitan and so it's like a melting pot. You see all of it every single day, and you can't be away from your privilege. You can't face away if you really choose to tap into it. So I guess that's where that idea of environmental justice kind of ticked in my brain.Brian Bienkowski And before we get into some of that, some of the energy justice work you've done, and what you're working on now, what is a moment or event that has helped shaped your identity up to this point?Mokshda Kaul It's interesting because I was listening to Maria Jo's podcast the other day, and she said the same thing that I have been thinking about that I don't think it's a particular incident. I think it's these bunch of different things that have come together to this moment of like who I am. First of all, it's obviously my parents' history as being internal refugees and learning from them about how conflict operates at a very young age, like I was, I think, three or four, when I understood that, oh, we are not in our hometown because of this huge issue that happened, and there was violence and there was extremism, and there were two sides to the story at that same time, my parents side and the other side. And I think growing up with that, and then there's actually very funny thing that I remember now that you said defining incidents. I think I had bit of a bleeding heart syndrome since I was a child. I don't know why, but I had this. So I still remember this, because it's, it's like, etched so vividly in my memory. I was in third grade and we had to make posters for something in school. I don't remember what exactly, but my poster was the planet crying because it was hot. And this is 2003 and I remember one of my uncles came home and he made fun of me, and he was like, "This is so stupid. Like, why are you concerned about the environment and the planet?" And I was in tears, because I was like, no, no, we need to care about this. I don't understand why you don't care about this. And I was, I was sad, like, I was heartbroken that people don't care. And so that little child always had that element of, why don't we want to make the world a better place? Like, what's wrong with people?Brian Bienkowski So the world is still crying. Since your picture, unfortunately, we're all we should all be crying. And so you are, you are trying to better the world, and your research focuses on, I'm distilling it down, but the clean energy transition. So first, what drew you to this line of research, and how are you using this economics background that you mentioned to understand the clean energy adoption and policy?Mokshda Kaul Back in 2014 King's College London did this really cool thing where they got professors from King's College to come down to Mumbai and do this really cool summer course. And I did the one on international political economy. And every student, it was very strenuous. They packed a summer school's worth of teaching and practice into like a one and a half week period. So it was so much reading, like this huge binder of – I don't even want to go back to that – but each student had to prepare, like a presentation on a particular topic. And this is big bit of a background. My dad works in oil and gas, and that's very unsettling to me, and I'm sure he's going to listen to this, but so I naturally decide that I want to work on the energy topic, energy presentation for this class. Because I was like, Oh, my dad knows about this. And the day that I had to present, our professor actually did this whole presentation on how the shale oil boom is going to change, like the face of the earth. And my entire presentation actually was about the shale oil boom. So this is like one hour before my presentation, and I'm having a meltdown because I don't know what to talk about anymore, because you just covered everything, and I'm doing this frantic internet search of what do I talk about? And that's how I found out about the energy transition, and that's how I discovered that, oh, renewable energy is a thing. So instead of talking about shale oil, I talked about how we have these other sources of energy which actually don't create the problems that we have with fossil fuels, and they need more investment, of course, in time. But this is 2014 so it was different situation back then. And so that was how I kind of was drawn to the energy transition. It was a very important moment in my life, I would say, and that changed the focus of how I was seeing the world, and that changed the focus of what I wanted to do with the world. And speaking to my background as an economist, I'm trained as an economist. But I come from a very interdisciplinary school, the School of Sustainability here at ASU, and we kind of, my advisor has a political science background, so I incorporate methods from political science and economics, and the way I see it is it kind of helps me translate the world. So I know econ gets a bad rap for the fact that it's been, it's kind of led us to the point we are at in terms of exploiting the environment and all of those things. But I'm surrounded by a bunch of folks in the School of Sustainability who use econ as a tool to sort of address these problems of environmental and climate issues and distribution concerns and equity concerns. And that's how I see econ. I see it as like this toolkit that I can use to understand why do things look the way they do. And then the political science part also adds to it, because it helps me understand why did people decide what they decided. So all in all, I feel like really grateful for the fact that I have this pol-sci + econ situation, because I'm able to understand policies from like, start to finish in a way that what went into the background, why did you think the way you thought when you made this and how did this come about? And then what are the outcomes from it? So from that sense, yeah, these disciplines have helped me just unpack the whole thing as much as I can.Brian Bienkowski I think the economics arguments and studies and the information that comes out when it comes to environmental issues, energy included, are some of the most interesting, in my opinion. So for instance, EHN covers endocrine disrupting chemicals, and we can say till we're blue in the face, you know, they're bad. And they do this, they hijack your hormones, so on and so forth. But a few years ago, someone did an economic impact study that looked at like healthcare costs associated with chemical exposure. And when you start putting dollar amounts to things like this, I feel like you have all that. You have, all of a sudden gotten the attention of a whole other group of people who have, maybe aren't as concerned.Mokshda Kaul AbsolutelyBrian Bienkowski so I, and I'm sure this is the case in clean energy and fossil fuels. So I I always find those kind of economic angles really, really interesting. And you're looking at the role of coalitions in clean energy policy making. So I want to unpack this a little bit. What can you tell us about the importance of coalitions in this space? And do you have some examples?Mokshda Kaul So for this piece on coalitions that I'm working on, first of all, this is more about the political science space of understanding how policies are made. And I think I came from this question of wanting to understand there were these two very interesting climate legislations in the US that I encountered. I'm sure there are many more. One was in New York, which was the CLCPA, the community leadership, climate leadership and community Protection Act. And other was the CEJA, climate and equitable jobs Act in Illinois. And when I looked at both of these, the first things that you see when you like just do a Google search, is the coalitions that led them there. So there was this really intense advocacy by these major environmental coalitions happening on the ground for both of these acts. And I personally, of course, coalitions are an important tool because they bring in that element of procedural justice, because you are actually having representation from the people you seek to create these acts for and create these bills for. But more than that, I also feel like coalitions become this interesting way to create buy in, because if you have people who are actually invested in, let's say, like, reducing energy burdens, putting their words out there, and having people actually respond to it, and that makes its way into legislation, then this person actually feels represented. And then you have, like, buy-in from this person towards protecting the environment. And I think that's like, these are the two legislative examples. But in terms of coalitions themselves, there's the Illinois clean job coalition in Illinois, which was leading the way on seizure and NY renewals, which was leading the way on clcpa. But outside of the environmental coalitions, there are also jfossil-fuel-union-based job coalitions trying to represent this other side of justice in the transition, in the sense that there are fossil fuel labor groups who are trying to advocate for the fact that they need provisions to sort of help them after these fossil fuel plants are closed down to transition into other work. And so there are, there's the Climate Jobs Institute by, I think it's with Cornell, yeah. And they essentially have these affiliates across the country in different states. So there is Climate Jobs New York, there's Climate Jobs,Illinois, and all of these spaces, I mean, these coalitions represent this other side of justice. And again, if you don't have these coalitions doing it, there's nobody who's going to actually speak like represent these people's interests, is my point. So I think coalitions are incredibly important, especially when you think about justice and in the policy making process, not just in like the part where you advocate for your needs, and you just do these die ins, or you do demonstrations, not just that, but also the language that goes into these policies. So that's my perspective, and why I think coalitions are incredibly important. And I don't want to sound biased, but I really love the work that ICJ has been doing and the work that the climate jobs affiliates have been doing, it's, yeah, it's incredible to watch how they are trying to deal with this.Brian Bienkowski So you mentioned this idea of buy in, and perhaps that gets people kind of more interested, more engaged. Most of us have also heard about these incentive programs. You know, just financial incentives for clean energy, whether it's upgrading our inefficient fridge or purchasing solar for our roof. So what kind of impact do these policies have on adoption?Mokshda Kaul So I think my question to your question is, the question is adoption for whom? Because at the end of the day, it is not about... I mean, yes, they increase adoption of like, let's say solar energy or electric vehicles or efficient appliances. But I think the question is not about, Is it leading to a relative increase? But who is it leading to a relative increase for? because, again, econ is amazing for this, but it is. There are. There's so much documented evidence at this point that electric vehicle tax credits, residential solar tax credits, tend to benefit wealthier households, which are from like a higher income status or a higher socioeconomic status in the US, and I'm talking about specifically here. So I think the question is the kind of I mean, speaking, what the kind of impact they have on adoption, I'm sure they're improving adoption. Yes, they are. But I think again, that question about how these policies define who's eligible for them, changes who can apply for them, and changes who can receive these benefits. And just as a simple example, there is this program called the affordable solar program in New York, and it's aimed at low-middle income households. But it's the eligibility criterion is that you need to be an owner-occupied household. So you need to be owning the property you live in. But if you're a program that's trying to cater to low-middle income households, you'd know that most of them are renters. So if you are trying to target LMI households by being an owner-occupied program, you're missing a huge chunk of the target population. So I guess the question that I mean, I'm all for it, I'm all for these programs that encourage adoption, but I feel like, inadvertently, they are encouraging inequities in adoption, and that is a much bigger problem to deal with honestly, because that's impeding a just transition, because there's inequitable access then and again. It's that privileged thing, like, just by virtue of the fact that I own the house that I live in, I can get a tax credit for buying panels, and I can get cheaper electricity, and I can, like, also feel good about saving the environment. But then there's somebody else who actually pays much higher amount in their energy bills, because, you know, the energy burden is higher for lower income classes, and they can't even access solar panels because they're not eligible for such tax credits. And in fact, even funnier is giving tax credit to folks who don't earn enough to fall under a tax bracket you're missing, you're missing a huge chunk of the population. If you're saying this is how we're going to help you, when that's not what they'll use. So, yeah, I'd say I'm always very concerned about trying to see who are these benefits going to when we are encouraging adoption in these ways.Brian Bienkowski Yeah, it's a really good point. There's these kind of baked in inequities, even in, you know, programs and policies that are ostensibly trying to do the right thing, we're still baking in these kind of the same kind of inequities that got us here in the first place. And speaking of that, you know, there's a lot of kind of back and forth in the EV, electric vehicle, space, and I happen to be from Detroit, so I I hear even more about this from my family who everybody worked in or does work in the automotive industry. But we're increasingly see some of the environmental justice implications around mining for the needed metals here. And again, I live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and they are trying to reopen old mines up here that have been closed for years. And I don't know if it's necessarily EVs or just kind of electronics at large, but specific to the EVS. Can you talk about this and what it means as EVs become more popular, some of these environmental justice concerns that might pop up or that are popping up.Mokshda Kaul So if you're a Tesla bro and you're listening to this, stop listening right now. But if you're not, go on. I have this whole, again, I have this whole I have a lot of hills that I want to die on eventually, but we'll get there when we get there. So speaking about EVs, again, they're incredibly important if we want to have, like an electrified grid, in the sense that we want that balanced demand curve, so that we can have more clean energy in our energy mix, so that way EVs, yes, 100% important. And of course, reducing, like greenhouse gas emissions that come from tailpipes. I'm all for that thing that I'm not all for is, like you said, the mining aspects of it. So I have not spent as much time looking at the domestic implications of it, and that's something I'm stepping into now, in terms of the US. But if you look at a global picture, we get most of a cobalt from the Democratic Republic of Congo, and a this has been documented by tons of reports by Amnesty International. There's also a book called Cobalt Read by Sid Kara. And there's extensive documentation of how you have child labor, you have unsafe working conditions, the wage rate that they're paid, the laborers are paid at is definitely unfair, it's way below what should be acceptable. And there's also the problem is that as the demand goes up, the fact is that people in DRC, I mean, and I'm just conjecturing from all that I've read, I might be completely wrong if I go to the ground and talk to people, but it's creating that pressure where people think that it's profitable to keep mining cobalt. So they're like little children getting into this business, and they're like, indulging in artisanal mining, which is where you dig in your backyard, kind of a thing, just in very broad terms, but as the demand goes up, it's encouraging this pressure to kind of keep mining that way. And there's no regulation in place to ensure that there is ethical mining. And because of that, you're left with the situation where you are, like, incentivizing this to be done in the wrong way, and you want to keep the price of EVs down so that more people buy it because it's a solution for fighting climate change. So it's the question of, if we were to define this in a just way, if we would have ethical mining practices, who would bear the cost? And I mean, depending on your political leaning, you would have five different answers to the question. To this question, but I guess EVs, yes, good. But how we are getting them is a huge question, and it's not about just about DRC and cobalt. It's about lithium coming from South America, and the kind of questions and issues that it's raised with, like Indigenous farmers and their rights to their land and the water pollution it's creating, and rare earth mining in Myanmar, and that's not just for EVs. That's also for a whole host of clean energy technologies. Rare earths go into panels, they go into wind turbine blades and whatnot. And if you look at these pictures, I think Global Witness to this very heartbreaking report where they showed pictures side by side of areas in Myanmar, which had been like a year back. They had not they were completely untouched, covered in like green cover. And now there's these deep wells with polluted water because they've been indiscriminately mined for rare earth. And there's also, like, the one other thing I want to flag is I feel like the world is exploiting the fact that there are a lot of places in the world which are having a breakdown of constitutional mechanisms to protect their citizens. And the rest of the world is kind of like being privy to it and also exploiting it to make these EVs and make them cheaper and, like, have them run the way they run, kind of a thing. So, yeah, I Yes, EVs, but at what cost, is how I'd frame it.Brian Bienkowski And so, just to give you a few more hills, if you want to die, yes, before and we, I do want to get into some of the, you know, some of the optimistic and some of the bright signs you're seeing, but just kind of writ large, you know, we've talked about EVs just just now, and some of the contamination concerns and EJ components we talked about, you know, kind of inequitable distribution of incentives. What are some other environmental and energy justice concerns that you have in clean energy use? Because I think most of us, it's often painted in a very positive light, understandably so, I mean, fossil fuels remain such a big problem for this planet. So but before we get to those, some of those solutions, what are some other concerns you have?Mokshda Kaul I'm actually glad about what you said. I just want to touch on what you said for a second that we need to remember the fact that we need the clean energy transition, but we also need to have a little bit of prudence about how we are doing it, because let's not forget that we are kind of building on the backs of someone at the end of the day. And the question is, who is that someone? who's that like sacrifice zone for this now? because we've had sacrifice zones for fossil fuel production, but we sure are having it for clean energy as well. We just can't pretend that, because it's solving climate change. All's hunky dory. So other questions and like concerns that I have, first of all, I'm very deep in this bit of mining for critical minerals, which are important for the energy transition, not just for EVs. So I have been looking at, who would, you know, sort of shoulder the cost if we were to mine ethically, like, who would pay that cost? And I'm trying to get into that a little bit more lately, and I'm also trying to understand within the US, because there has been the chips act and IRA, which are kind of Inflation Reduction Act, which are encouraging domestic mining. What happens then? Because there are these reports that say that most of the reserves of critical minerals that we need if we are going to mine in the US are located close to Native American territory. So we are starting to recreate a problem we have not solved really in the past. So it becomes another question about that, in terms of the mining issues. And I think the other stuff that I'm honestly concerned about is access to clean energy opportunities. And I know, like a lot of people are working on this, but I'm thinking about electrifying like jobs, clean energy jobs. So who gets access to these and there are certain states which are creating provisions for environmental justice communities to be able to access these jobs. But then, if you're creating provisions to access a job that doesn't have prevailing wage rate, what are you doing and who are you trying to, like pull whose eyes are you trying to pull wool over? Is my question. So I guess, about the quality of jobs, I'm concerned. About, where are these jobs coming up? And I'm, I think the other thing that I'm also been thinking about in terms of EVs is electrifying transport and public transport in general, because EVs aren't accessible to LMI folks. And you're kind of like punishing these people with these vehicles that pollute, and you're finishing them with like higher burdens, because they are having to pay for gas vehicles. But what about electrifying public transport? And I think from in Arizona, especially, you see public trans like the lack in public transport. And I mean, I juxtapose this against India, where in Mumbai, we have brilliant public transport connectivity. So I yeah, that's the other element of public transportation, electrifying it is what I've been thinking about. And the other thing that I've just been toying with lately is clean energy jobs are creating an impact on these fossil fuel workers, where they're being forced to migrate to other places. And I know at the surface it seems like, well, it's just he's this person's just moving for the job. How does it matter? But I'm very curious about what kind of impacts does this have on the worker, their family, their like, emotional health, their like support system, and if they're moving, they're probably moving to like a job that doesn't pay as much. So what's going on there? And I'm trying to understand what are the impacts on migration from clean energy creation and incentives to clean energy production. So those are, like a bunch of things. I have so many. I don't hate the world, but I definitely love finding problems in it. So this is easy for me!Brian Bienkowski Well, let's, let's shift gears. Here we have, we have pointed out the world's problems, and I think you have some ideas on maybe how they cannot be so problematic. So first, you know, what are some ways, when we think about policymakers and others, where they could maybe build some caution into these climate change solutions to ensure that this transition is equitable?Mokshda Kaul I think first of all, I'm going to give a weird answer to this, because I have been working okay, for context, I have been working on two of my dissertation chapters around the clock for the last three months right now. So I'm very deep in a dark place, and it's a good dark place. I love this dark place. But I think the first thing that I'd want to say is we can't deny the technical realities of the energy transition. So I guess making peace with that the fact that we might need natural gas plants, or we might need some form of fossil fuel to transition, or we might need some form of nuclear to transition. So like kind of, I'm not saying being pro these fuels, but accepting the fact that you can't just, you know, snap your fingers and everything's going to be clean. So first of all, I would say that some way that policymakers could build that in is by having that acceptance of the actual system and the energy system itself. And the second thing is, like having these holistic perspectives on the energy transition itself, like I was talking about the Environmental Coalition and the Labor Justice Coalition, right? And if you think about it at the surface, an EJ activist would only see the environmental justice side. We would not want to focus on this is a set of people losing their jobs and and that's that's fair. But. Having that holistic perspective where you're acknowledging these two sides of the story helps, because it's you can build provisions to ameliorate the kind of suffering or the problems that will be created in the process there will be somebody who has to bear the cost of the transition. But the question is, are we building in enough provisions to sort of address that, and are we kind of trying to protect the people who we are going to be exploiting in the process?And the other thing that I think is a little bit personal to me because of the dissertation work and my own research, is the way we define things and policies. I think we need, as like as societ, we need to have clearer definitions of who we seek to benefit. And only when you have these clear definitions of who you seek to benefit can you actually measure if you've been impacting these people or not, like just having these broad, losey-goosey ideas of I have a program that should benefit environmentally disadvantaged communities. What does that mean? Who are you talking about? And that, I think, is a very important aspect as well. And the other thing I want to talk about is, like, humility, because I feel like we will learn a lot from our mistakes as this transition goes on. And I'm hopeful that we will, as policy makers, be able to, like, kind of, you know, take a step back and reflect on what went wrong. For example, bills where they have not built in just transition provisions are they are being able to see how coal communities have lost revenues and have lost have had to, like, do a lot of things in terms of, like, shutting down public schools. So those spaces policy makers can actually have that moment of reckoning and realize that, hey, maybe we made a mistake and we should try to change this the next time. So having that humility, I think, is incredibly important as well. But yeah, those are my high horse comments. So you mentioned the Inflation Reduction Act, and anybody living in the US, whether you know it or not, your community is being touched by this in some way. It was a massive, massive spending bill. Have you seen this approach in the IRA? Have you seen a justice-oriented approach? And if not, where is it lacking? So yes and no, IRA, I mean, I'm so incredibly amazed by it for so many different reasons, like it has this focus on low-middle income communities. It has a focus on electrifying tribal regions. It has that. It has a whole tribal electrification program, and it has like in these tax credits, investment tax credits, and production tax credits for energy communities. So specifically, the communities that have lost revenue due to coal plant closures or coal mine closures, and so they are kind of target like, you know, talking about the right groups of people, and they're targeting the right kind of issues in that sense, like encouraging the production of clean energy in these areas, or workforce development in these spaces. And there's also that whole chunk of Environment and Climate Justice block grants under the IRA, which are meant for specifically disadvantaged communities and community-based organizations in these areas, can apply to these grants for all things from like workforce development to clean energy technology development to climate resilience. It's, I mean, it's a huge set of sources to kind of A), reduce greenhouse gasses, and B), be able to kind of harness the potential of the clean energy transition. So from that perspective, I really like the IRA and the way it's focusing on people who need to be focused on honestly. But again, this is the same thing that I just talked about, the way we define things. So the IRA itself has, it doesn't have, like, a consistent definition of what is disadvantage and what is environmental justice communities or low income communities, like some places, they are using a particular definition based on a particular tax credit. Other places they are not, and even in the environmental justice Block Grant, environmental and climate justice block grant itself, program itself, they have, they say that they will use a definition by the that is being used by the Justice 40. The Council on Environmental Quality has that screen tool where they are basically identifying disadvantaged areas. But they also say that EPA has yet to finalize how we will define disadvantaged communities for this program. So I think that's my one of my icky things that I don't like about it is that when you don't define there is a lot of room for people to sort of exploit and pretend like they're doing good work when they're not. And I mean, of course, it remains to be seen how much people will be able to exploit this, but I think that that is something that makes me very uncomfortable about it. And I also think there is this one aspect of the IRA which is a little interesting. I haven't read a little bit. I haven't read more about it, and I really want to, but it's about how, if, uh. So the Department of Interior, I think, has to give out certain acreage of land in oil and gas leasing for being able to give offshore and onshore wind and solar development rights. So you are encouraging production of oil and gas in a way. And that's, yeah, that's a little I'm still trying to understand. Why has that been said, and why is that being done? Because I'm sure there is some logic somewhere deep inside, and I'm hoping there is, but I think, yeah, that and this definition thing, like, it's the same thing, if, in fact, I mean, sorry about the off-topicness, but the Weatherization Assistance Program that also, like, there was this work done by Dominic Bernard and Tony Reems, and they have actually documented how these programs that are supposed to assist low income households with their energy burdens and alleviate energy party, they don't use a definition at the end of the day about who's energy poor. And because they don't do that, you can't just say anybody falling below 80% of area median income is LMI, because that's not what being energy poor is about. It's about a lot of different facets. So if you choose to define it by this one income based category or criterion, you're not you're not doing a good job first of all. And yes, in that sense, the Justice body tools and this EJ screen, they are kind of holistic in the way they bring in climate burdens and environment burdens. But again, if you don't have a consistent definition throughout an act, there's so much wiggle room to do not good things, is how I'd say it.Brian Bienkowski So it sounds like the IRA has some good aspects to it, and we've we actually talked to Jalan Newsome, I believe, who is on the Council of Environmental Quality. And she talked at length about Justice40 I would encourage listeners to listen to that and then listen to this again. Listen to most response. But you know, outside of the IRA, have you seen, you know, countries, states, municipalities, towns, villages, anything that are embarking on the clean energy transition in a way that you see as equitable and just, and if so, can you talk about it a little bit?Mokshda Kaul So I'm not from Illinois. I have no relationship with Illinois. This is not sponsored by Illinois. I really love CEJA! I think it's really cool. And I know I'm probably missing a chunk of things. And I'm not saying it's perfect. Please, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that the way they have been able to bring like environmental justice and the provisions for labor justice, like fossil fuel labor justice in together at the same time is incredible, in my opinion! And they have so this is what I meant earlier, when I was saying about job creation, because what they have done is clean energy jobs are going to be created, and they're going to be union jobs. They're going to have prevailing wage standards, and they are also going to be a section of them is going to be devoted only to environmental justice communities. So you are kind of doing that, two words, one stone thing, and I think that's incredible. And the other thing I love, love about CEJA is they did this thing called the "Listen Lead Share" sessions. And I know no one can see this, but has to spark in my eye when I talk about the Listen Lead Share sessions. But the Listen LeadSshare sessions were basically this kind of listening session situation where smaller Bipoc community organizations were leading these listening sessions within Illinois, trying to collect opinions, not just opinion, but experiences and what people want in like an energy justice kind of a way from illinoisians, just to understand what is it that is bothering the people. And I wish I had the link for it, but when the bill actually came out there is he's the head of elevate. I can't remember his name right now. Really love the guy. I don't know why my brain's blanking on it, but he actually read out pieces from these listening sessions where local Illinoisans had cited concerns and what had made its way into the legislation actually, so actual people's opinions were there. And I just, I find that so amazing, like, that's what I mean by accurate representation. And the other thing that I found very cool about CEJA is they have provisions for returning citizens in these clean energy jobs. And that's some that's a, like, a huge chunk of population that we tend to miss when we talk about justice issues. And the reason they had that was because they used to have these zoom based, like, Zoom-Room based sessions where they tried to get people to talk about what's going on. And there was this one guy. He was like a representative. He was a returning citizen himself, and he was a representative for like a group, and he actually was like, You know what, we need provisions from people like me. And they bought that in, and they built that in. So it's incredible the way they have been able to sort of bring this to fruition. I mean, I'm sure implementation stages are you. Infamous for how things go wrong, but in just the way the act is written and the way it was brought together, I am so amazed, and I'm in love.Brian Bienkowski And what is that acronym? You said it's CEJA, What is that acronym? So if people wanted to check it out, yeah,Mokshda Kaul actually, you know what? I'm going to make sure I'm doing this right, because CEJA there was a CEJA proposed by the environment coalition, and then there was a final CEJA that was passed. And those two had different acronyms, but Climate and Equitable Jobs Act is how the bill that actually passed. And yeah, that's the one that was signed by the governor. And give me one second, I want to find the name of the person from Elevate, because he's really important and really cool, certainly, and I think he's like, worth mentioning if anyone's looking just one sec, Delmar. His name is Delmar Gillius, and he works for Elevate, and he was one of the few persons of color who is responsible for, like, actually, legislative negotiations as well. And he was incredible. And, yeah, it has been amazing to talk with all these folks that I've had a chance to talk to. And yes, again, not sponsored by Illinois. I just really love it.Brian Bienkowski Well, it's always nice to end on an optimistic note. And just to keep that theme, we have some fun, some fun, before we get you out of here. And thank you again, so much for this. I love talking to you about I think the energy conversation is so often missing nuance. People want to say "end" fossil fuels yesterday," or they want to say "we need fossil fuels forever," and just having nuance in that conversation is needed if we're going to get anywhere. So before we get out of here, I have a few rapid fire questions where you can just answer with one word or a phrase. My favorite comfort food is, I'llMokshda Kaul I'll have to explain this.Brian Bienkowski Go right ahead.Mokshda Kaul Okay, it's Haak, Rogan Josh and rice. Haak is collard greens. We blanch them. And Rogan Josh is a really spicy lamb curry. And these are all Kashmiri foods. So if any Kashmiri is listening, I'm representing us and and with rice and yogurt, of course, but the Indian kind of yogurt, not the Greek yogurt. I would Oh, my God. Like, I think I'm gonna make it today. I described and I was like, Yeah, well, it's been a while, maybe we should do this today.Brian Bienkowski If I had to try out a job other than my current one, it would beMokshda Kaul writing. I would love to be a fiction writer for the rest of my life.Brian Bienkowski And my dream vacation isMokshda Kaul my current dream vacation is Poland. Because Poland, Poland, however we pronounce it? because I really want to be in a place that has the mountains and the sea and all the history to it. Been wanting to go since before 2020 and now I don't know when will I go,Brian Bienkowski Are you just trying to like, like, like, kiss up to the host here? That is my so I am very, I am very, I never thought anybody would say Poland to that question, so I was supposed to go. And yes, so I am. My grandparents were immigrants from Poland to Detroit and other parts of Michigan. And so I was supposed to go in 2020 or 2021 and it was no, it must have been 2022 because it was right when a Ukraine was invaded, exactly there was, there was this tale of covid. So I waited, and then there was a war that started. So I have not gone because obviously it's so close to Ukraine. And I just, yeah, you know, but we had, we have a lot of genealogy we've done, so I'm trying to sketch out a trip to places where family was and is so very cool.Mokshda Kaul That is so cool! Yeah, I wanted to do this was my I love solo trips, and this was going to be my trip before grad school. But like I said, I started grad school in 2020 so by the time I could book the tickets, the world was shut down. So that was the start of it. And then just being in grad school, I really don't, I don't know if I had the time. And then the war happened, and so I just at that point, I was like, You know what? It's not destined for now. So I guess I'm gonna put it on the back burner.Brian Bienkowski We'll have to stay in touch. Hopefully one of us will get there. Maybe both of us will get there. And so I've been learning the language too, which a Slavic language, is not easy to learn when you are 41 years old. It is not soaking into my brain.Mokshda Kaul That's so interesting, because for Kashmiri, the problem is, it's, it is like from the Indian group of languages. But I don't know, I'm forgetting the word for it, but apparently it sounds a lot like Central American language, Central Asian languages, sorry. So there is, like, a, like, an influx of salvik. And Persian and like, so I have had a lot of friends who are from, like, Central Asia, be like, What did you say? So, like, language is, God. Like, yeah, I am very curious. That's a really cool thing to do, though, because it keeps your brain young. SoBrian Bienkowski it does, yes, it gets that other part of my brain that in music. So moksha. What is the last book that you read for fun? And you do not have to confine yourself to one word or a phrase here.Mokshda Kaul Okay, the last book I read was "Small things like these" by Claire O'keekin, I think what's her name? Very short, very spiffy, very sad. Loved it. And I also listened to audiobooks. So the last audiobook I listened to was Untamed by Glennon Doyle. So yeah, both of those were amazing. And small things like these was just I finished it in a day because it was so well written and so quick. I was like, wow, I need to I'm dropping everything.Brian Bienkowski I love books like that. They are the they are the best. Well, moksha. Thank you so much for your time, for your intelligence, your wit. I really like talking to you about these things and beyond. And just as a side note, you always seem, I know you say you're a pessimist, but you always seem happy and inject humor and lightness, and it's really just lights up a room, and it lit up this call. So thank you so much for being here, and I hope we can have you on again soon.Mokshda Kaul Yeah, thank you so much. This was really wonderful to talk to you.

Mokshda Kaul joins the Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast to discuss the clean energy transition and how policymakers and other leaders can avoid mistakes of the past.Kaul, a Ph.D. candidate in the sustainable energy program at the School of Sustainability at Arizona State University, also talks about the crucial role of coalitions in a just energy transition.The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.Listen below to our discussion with Kaul and subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Spotify.Agents of Change in Environmental Justice · Mokshda Kaul on making the clean energy transition work for allTranscript Brian BienkowskiMoksha, how are you doing today?Mokshda Kaul I'm good. How are you, Brian?Brian Bienkowski I'm doing wonderful. I'm a little hot. I turned off my fan so we don't have the background noise. And where are you today?Mokshda Kaul So speaking of hot, I'm in Arizona, so I'm in Phoenix, and I've also turned my fan off. And luckily, my AC is working, so I'm not going to explode into flames, which is always possible in Arizona. So, you know, just saying. But yeah, that's where I am right now, and I'm just really excited to do this actually.Brian Bienkowski Well, I am really excited to talk to you too. Your research and your path there, to me, are fascinating. So I'm so excited to have you on the program. So as you probably know, I like to start at the beginning. So tell me a little bit about your upbringing. Of course, you're not from Arizona originally.Mokshda Kaul yeah. So I moved here for my PhD in 2020 and that was in the middle of the pandemic, by the way, which was quite jarring. There were only those bubble flights operating from the US to India, and it was terrifying for multiple different reasons. And I got got here, and I was again stuck in a room. Instead of being stuck in a room in India, I was stuck in a room in Phoenix. Nothing changed in my life, honestly speaking. But in terms of, like, where I'm from, and coming to Arizona, I'm from Mumbai, which is I think, the world's most densely populated city. So I'm used to having people step on my toes while I'm walking. And I came to Arizona, and I was like, there are no people here. What's wrong with this place? So that was number one for me. And, I mean, being raised in Mumbai, India is a country with so many multitudes. And I'm born and raised in Mumbai, but I come from Kashmir, and I spent my summer vacations, and, like a lot of my time, even, like a few years in my childhood, actually, in this smaller town near Kashmir called Jammu, which is, I would say, like now it's a tier-two city, but back then, maybe it was like a tier-three city, and it was very jarring the difference between Mumbai and Jammu, because Mumbai is the financial capital of India. So you have every amenity you can think of. You have round the clock electricity, and of course, within Mumbai also, we have terrible infrastructure problems, but that's a different story. But juxtaposing that against Jammu, where you'd have blackouts in the middle of summer heat and like summer, like the Phoenix summer, and I used to find it so uncomfortable to sort of when I'd come back to Mumbai to have that feeling of, wait, what is the thing that the people here are doing right, that they don't have to have these blackouts? Like, what? What is it like? Why is there this element of chance and privilege that's deciding who gets to experience these things or not? And I think I was just always very irritated and uncomfortable by it, and I was benefiting from it for all intents and purposes.Brian Bienkowski And so you mentioned that juxtaposition of Kashmir and Mumbai, and I'm wondering if that was kind of where you became aware of the concept of environmental justice, or if that was or if it was something else.Mokshda Kaul So I mean, I'm really glad you point that out, but that's exactly it. I would find it very unsettling. And it's just, if you look at it, I mean, at the same time as I was growing up, I was reading like, Rawlsian theories of justice and trying to understand, like, who decides, who decides that somebody gets something just by virtue of the fact that they were born in a particular city? Like, I don't have anything to do with the fact that I was born in Mumbai. Okay, and I think that the unsettled feeling never left me, and I think that's what they call acknowledging your privilege. And I was just always affected by it. And also in addition to this, India has lot of issues on the grounds of caste and class, and growing up in a space like that, where you... especially in Mumbai, where it's so cosmopolitan and so it's like a melting pot. You see all of it every single day, and you can't be away from your privilege. You can't face away if you really choose to tap into it. So I guess that's where that idea of environmental justice kind of ticked in my brain.Brian Bienkowski And before we get into some of that, some of the energy justice work you've done, and what you're working on now, what is a moment or event that has helped shaped your identity up to this point?Mokshda Kaul It's interesting because I was listening to Maria Jo's podcast the other day, and she said the same thing that I have been thinking about that I don't think it's a particular incident. I think it's these bunch of different things that have come together to this moment of like who I am. First of all, it's obviously my parents' history as being internal refugees and learning from them about how conflict operates at a very young age, like I was, I think, three or four, when I understood that, oh, we are not in our hometown because of this huge issue that happened, and there was violence and there was extremism, and there were two sides to the story at that same time, my parents side and the other side. And I think growing up with that, and then there's actually very funny thing that I remember now that you said defining incidents. I think I had bit of a bleeding heart syndrome since I was a child. I don't know why, but I had this. So I still remember this, because it's, it's like, etched so vividly in my memory. I was in third grade and we had to make posters for something in school. I don't remember what exactly, but my poster was the planet crying because it was hot. And this is 2003 and I remember one of my uncles came home and he made fun of me, and he was like, "This is so stupid. Like, why are you concerned about the environment and the planet?" And I was in tears, because I was like, no, no, we need to care about this. I don't understand why you don't care about this. And I was, I was sad, like, I was heartbroken that people don't care. And so that little child always had that element of, why don't we want to make the world a better place? Like, what's wrong with people?Brian Bienkowski So the world is still crying. Since your picture, unfortunately, we're all we should all be crying. And so you are, you are trying to better the world, and your research focuses on, I'm distilling it down, but the clean energy transition. So first, what drew you to this line of research, and how are you using this economics background that you mentioned to understand the clean energy adoption and policy?Mokshda Kaul Back in 2014 King's College London did this really cool thing where they got professors from King's College to come down to Mumbai and do this really cool summer course. And I did the one on international political economy. And every student, it was very strenuous. They packed a summer school's worth of teaching and practice into like a one and a half week period. So it was so much reading, like this huge binder of – I don't even want to go back to that – but each student had to prepare, like a presentation on a particular topic. And this is big bit of a background. My dad works in oil and gas, and that's very unsettling to me, and I'm sure he's going to listen to this, but so I naturally decide that I want to work on the energy topic, energy presentation for this class. Because I was like, Oh, my dad knows about this. And the day that I had to present, our professor actually did this whole presentation on how the shale oil boom is going to change, like the face of the earth. And my entire presentation actually was about the shale oil boom. So this is like one hour before my presentation, and I'm having a meltdown because I don't know what to talk about anymore, because you just covered everything, and I'm doing this frantic internet search of what do I talk about? And that's how I found out about the energy transition, and that's how I discovered that, oh, renewable energy is a thing. So instead of talking about shale oil, I talked about how we have these other sources of energy which actually don't create the problems that we have with fossil fuels, and they need more investment, of course, in time. But this is 2014 so it was different situation back then. And so that was how I kind of was drawn to the energy transition. It was a very important moment in my life, I would say, and that changed the focus of how I was seeing the world, and that changed the focus of what I wanted to do with the world. And speaking to my background as an economist, I'm trained as an economist. But I come from a very interdisciplinary school, the School of Sustainability here at ASU, and we kind of, my advisor has a political science background, so I incorporate methods from political science and economics, and the way I see it is it kind of helps me translate the world. So I know econ gets a bad rap for the fact that it's been, it's kind of led us to the point we are at in terms of exploiting the environment and all of those things. But I'm surrounded by a bunch of folks in the School of Sustainability who use econ as a tool to sort of address these problems of environmental and climate issues and distribution concerns and equity concerns. And that's how I see econ. I see it as like this toolkit that I can use to understand why do things look the way they do. And then the political science part also adds to it, because it helps me understand why did people decide what they decided. So all in all, I feel like really grateful for the fact that I have this pol-sci + econ situation, because I'm able to understand policies from like, start to finish in a way that what went into the background, why did you think the way you thought when you made this and how did this come about? And then what are the outcomes from it? So from that sense, yeah, these disciplines have helped me just unpack the whole thing as much as I can.Brian Bienkowski I think the economics arguments and studies and the information that comes out when it comes to environmental issues, energy included, are some of the most interesting, in my opinion. So for instance, EHN covers endocrine disrupting chemicals, and we can say till we're blue in the face, you know, they're bad. And they do this, they hijack your hormones, so on and so forth. But a few years ago, someone did an economic impact study that looked at like healthcare costs associated with chemical exposure. And when you start putting dollar amounts to things like this, I feel like you have all that. You have, all of a sudden gotten the attention of a whole other group of people who have, maybe aren't as concerned.Mokshda Kaul AbsolutelyBrian Bienkowski so I, and I'm sure this is the case in clean energy and fossil fuels. So I I always find those kind of economic angles really, really interesting. And you're looking at the role of coalitions in clean energy policy making. So I want to unpack this a little bit. What can you tell us about the importance of coalitions in this space? And do you have some examples?Mokshda Kaul So for this piece on coalitions that I'm working on, first of all, this is more about the political science space of understanding how policies are made. And I think I came from this question of wanting to understand there were these two very interesting climate legislations in the US that I encountered. I'm sure there are many more. One was in New York, which was the CLCPA, the community leadership, climate leadership and community Protection Act. And other was the CEJA, climate and equitable jobs Act in Illinois. And when I looked at both of these, the first things that you see when you like just do a Google search, is the coalitions that led them there. So there was this really intense advocacy by these major environmental coalitions happening on the ground for both of these acts. And I personally, of course, coalitions are an important tool because they bring in that element of procedural justice, because you are actually having representation from the people you seek to create these acts for and create these bills for. But more than that, I also feel like coalitions become this interesting way to create buy in, because if you have people who are actually invested in, let's say, like, reducing energy burdens, putting their words out there, and having people actually respond to it, and that makes its way into legislation, then this person actually feels represented. And then you have, like, buy-in from this person towards protecting the environment. And I think that's like, these are the two legislative examples. But in terms of coalitions themselves, there's the Illinois clean job coalition in Illinois, which was leading the way on seizure and NY renewals, which was leading the way on clcpa. But outside of the environmental coalitions, there are also jfossil-fuel-union-based job coalitions trying to represent this other side of justice in the transition, in the sense that there are fossil fuel labor groups who are trying to advocate for the fact that they need provisions to sort of help them after these fossil fuel plants are closed down to transition into other work. And so there are, there's the Climate Jobs Institute by, I think it's with Cornell, yeah. And they essentially have these affiliates across the country in different states. So there is Climate Jobs New York, there's Climate Jobs,Illinois, and all of these spaces, I mean, these coalitions represent this other side of justice. And again, if you don't have these coalitions doing it, there's nobody who's going to actually speak like represent these people's interests, is my point. So I think coalitions are incredibly important, especially when you think about justice and in the policy making process, not just in like the part where you advocate for your needs, and you just do these die ins, or you do demonstrations, not just that, but also the language that goes into these policies. So that's my perspective, and why I think coalitions are incredibly important. And I don't want to sound biased, but I really love the work that ICJ has been doing and the work that the climate jobs affiliates have been doing, it's, yeah, it's incredible to watch how they are trying to deal with this.Brian Bienkowski So you mentioned this idea of buy in, and perhaps that gets people kind of more interested, more engaged. Most of us have also heard about these incentive programs. You know, just financial incentives for clean energy, whether it's upgrading our inefficient fridge or purchasing solar for our roof. So what kind of impact do these policies have on adoption?Mokshda Kaul So I think my question to your question is, the question is adoption for whom? Because at the end of the day, it is not about... I mean, yes, they increase adoption of like, let's say solar energy or electric vehicles or efficient appliances. But I think the question is not about, Is it leading to a relative increase? But who is it leading to a relative increase for? because, again, econ is amazing for this, but it is. There are. There's so much documented evidence at this point that electric vehicle tax credits, residential solar tax credits, tend to benefit wealthier households, which are from like a higher income status or a higher socioeconomic status in the US, and I'm talking about specifically here. So I think the question is the kind of I mean, speaking, what the kind of impact they have on adoption, I'm sure they're improving adoption. Yes, they are. But I think again, that question about how these policies define who's eligible for them, changes who can apply for them, and changes who can receive these benefits. And just as a simple example, there is this program called the affordable solar program in New York, and it's aimed at low-middle income households. But it's the eligibility criterion is that you need to be an owner-occupied household. So you need to be owning the property you live in. But if you're a program that's trying to cater to low-middle income households, you'd know that most of them are renters. So if you are trying to target LMI households by being an owner-occupied program, you're missing a huge chunk of the target population. So I guess the question that I mean, I'm all for it, I'm all for these programs that encourage adoption, but I feel like, inadvertently, they are encouraging inequities in adoption, and that is a much bigger problem to deal with honestly, because that's impeding a just transition, because there's inequitable access then and again. It's that privileged thing, like, just by virtue of the fact that I own the house that I live in, I can get a tax credit for buying panels, and I can get cheaper electricity, and I can, like, also feel good about saving the environment. But then there's somebody else who actually pays much higher amount in their energy bills, because, you know, the energy burden is higher for lower income classes, and they can't even access solar panels because they're not eligible for such tax credits. And in fact, even funnier is giving tax credit to folks who don't earn enough to fall under a tax bracket you're missing, you're missing a huge chunk of the population. If you're saying this is how we're going to help you, when that's not what they'll use. So, yeah, I'd say I'm always very concerned about trying to see who are these benefits going to when we are encouraging adoption in these ways.Brian Bienkowski Yeah, it's a really good point. There's these kind of baked in inequities, even in, you know, programs and policies that are ostensibly trying to do the right thing, we're still baking in these kind of the same kind of inequities that got us here in the first place. And speaking of that, you know, there's a lot of kind of back and forth in the EV, electric vehicle, space, and I happen to be from Detroit, so I I hear even more about this from my family who everybody worked in or does work in the automotive industry. But we're increasingly see some of the environmental justice implications around mining for the needed metals here. And again, I live in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, and they are trying to reopen old mines up here that have been closed for years. And I don't know if it's necessarily EVs or just kind of electronics at large, but specific to the EVS. Can you talk about this and what it means as EVs become more popular, some of these environmental justice concerns that might pop up or that are popping up.Mokshda Kaul So if you're a Tesla bro and you're listening to this, stop listening right now. But if you're not, go on. I have this whole, again, I have this whole I have a lot of hills that I want to die on eventually, but we'll get there when we get there. So speaking about EVs, again, they're incredibly important if we want to have, like an electrified grid, in the sense that we want that balanced demand curve, so that we can have more clean energy in our energy mix, so that way EVs, yes, 100% important. And of course, reducing, like greenhouse gas emissions that come from tailpipes. I'm all for that thing that I'm not all for is, like you said, the mining aspects of it. So I have not spent as much time looking at the domestic implications of it, and that's something I'm stepping into now, in terms of the US. But if you look at a global picture, we get most of a cobalt from the Democratic Republic of Congo, and a this has been documented by tons of reports by Amnesty International. There's also a book called Cobalt Read by Sid Kara. And there's extensive documentation of how you have child labor, you have unsafe working conditions, the wage rate that they're paid, the laborers are paid at is definitely unfair, it's way below what should be acceptable. And there's also the problem is that as the demand goes up, the fact is that people in DRC, I mean, and I'm just conjecturing from all that I've read, I might be completely wrong if I go to the ground and talk to people, but it's creating that pressure where people think that it's profitable to keep mining cobalt. So they're like little children getting into this business, and they're like, indulging in artisanal mining, which is where you dig in your backyard, kind of a thing, just in very broad terms, but as the demand goes up, it's encouraging this pressure to kind of keep mining that way. And there's no regulation in place to ensure that there is ethical mining. And because of that, you're left with the situation where you are, like, incentivizing this to be done in the wrong way, and you want to keep the price of EVs down so that more people buy it because it's a solution for fighting climate change. So it's the question of, if we were to define this in a just way, if we would have ethical mining practices, who would bear the cost? And I mean, depending on your political leaning, you would have five different answers to the question. To this question, but I guess EVs, yes, good. But how we are getting them is a huge question, and it's not about just about DRC and cobalt. It's about lithium coming from South America, and the kind of questions and issues that it's raised with, like Indigenous farmers and their rights to their land and the water pollution it's creating, and rare earth mining in Myanmar, and that's not just for EVs. That's also for a whole host of clean energy technologies. Rare earths go into panels, they go into wind turbine blades and whatnot. And if you look at these pictures, I think Global Witness to this very heartbreaking report where they showed pictures side by side of areas in Myanmar, which had been like a year back. They had not they were completely untouched, covered in like green cover. And now there's these deep wells with polluted water because they've been indiscriminately mined for rare earth. And there's also, like, the one other thing I want to flag is I feel like the world is exploiting the fact that there are a lot of places in the world which are having a breakdown of constitutional mechanisms to protect their citizens. And the rest of the world is kind of like being privy to it and also exploiting it to make these EVs and make them cheaper and, like, have them run the way they run, kind of a thing. So, yeah, I Yes, EVs, but at what cost, is how I'd frame it.Brian Bienkowski And so, just to give you a few more hills, if you want to die, yes, before and we, I do want to get into some of the, you know, some of the optimistic and some of the bright signs you're seeing, but just kind of writ large, you know, we've talked about EVs just just now, and some of the contamination concerns and EJ components we talked about, you know, kind of inequitable distribution of incentives. What are some other environmental and energy justice concerns that you have in clean energy use? Because I think most of us, it's often painted in a very positive light, understandably so, I mean, fossil fuels remain such a big problem for this planet. So but before we get to those, some of those solutions, what are some other concerns you have?Mokshda Kaul I'm actually glad about what you said. I just want to touch on what you said for a second that we need to remember the fact that we need the clean energy transition, but we also need to have a little bit of prudence about how we are doing it, because let's not forget that we are kind of building on the backs of someone at the end of the day. And the question is, who is that someone? who's that like sacrifice zone for this now? because we've had sacrifice zones for fossil fuel production, but we sure are having it for clean energy as well. We just can't pretend that, because it's solving climate change. All's hunky dory. So other questions and like concerns that I have, first of all, I'm very deep in this bit of mining for critical minerals, which are important for the energy transition, not just for EVs. So I have been looking at, who would, you know, sort of shoulder the cost if we were to mine ethically, like, who would pay that cost? And I'm trying to get into that a little bit more lately, and I'm also trying to understand within the US, because there has been the chips act and IRA, which are kind of Inflation Reduction Act, which are encouraging domestic mining. What happens then? Because there are these reports that say that most of the reserves of critical minerals that we need if we are going to mine in the US are located close to Native American territory. So we are starting to recreate a problem we have not solved really in the past. So it becomes another question about that, in terms of the mining issues. And I think the other stuff that I'm honestly concerned about is access to clean energy opportunities. And I know, like a lot of people are working on this, but I'm thinking about electrifying like jobs, clean energy jobs. So who gets access to these and there are certain states which are creating provisions for environmental justice communities to be able to access these jobs. But then, if you're creating provisions to access a job that doesn't have prevailing wage rate, what are you doing and who are you trying to, like pull whose eyes are you trying to pull wool over? Is my question. So I guess, about the quality of jobs, I'm concerned. About, where are these jobs coming up? And I'm, I think the other thing that I'm also been thinking about in terms of EVs is electrifying transport and public transport in general, because EVs aren't accessible to LMI folks. And you're kind of like punishing these people with these vehicles that pollute, and you're finishing them with like higher burdens, because they are having to pay for gas vehicles. But what about electrifying public transport? And I think from in Arizona, especially, you see public trans like the lack in public transport. And I mean, I juxtapose this against India, where in Mumbai, we have brilliant public transport connectivity. So I yeah, that's the other element of public transportation, electrifying it is what I've been thinking about. And the other thing that I've just been toying with lately is clean energy jobs are creating an impact on these fossil fuel workers, where they're being forced to migrate to other places. And I know at the surface it seems like, well, it's just he's this person's just moving for the job. How does it matter? But I'm very curious about what kind of impacts does this have on the worker, their family, their like, emotional health, their like support system, and if they're moving, they're probably moving to like a job that doesn't pay as much. So what's going on there? And I'm trying to understand what are the impacts on migration from clean energy creation and incentives to clean energy production. So those are, like a bunch of things. I have so many. I don't hate the world, but I definitely love finding problems in it. So this is easy for me!Brian Bienkowski Well, let's, let's shift gears. Here we have, we have pointed out the world's problems, and I think you have some ideas on maybe how they cannot be so problematic. So first, you know, what are some ways, when we think about policymakers and others, where they could maybe build some caution into these climate change solutions to ensure that this transition is equitable?Mokshda Kaul I think first of all, I'm going to give a weird answer to this, because I have been working okay, for context, I have been working on two of my dissertation chapters around the clock for the last three months right now. So I'm very deep in a dark place, and it's a good dark place. I love this dark place. But I think the first thing that I'd want to say is we can't deny the technical realities of the energy transition. So I guess making peace with that the fact that we might need natural gas plants, or we might need some form of fossil fuel to transition, or we might need some form of nuclear to transition. So like kind of, I'm not saying being pro these fuels, but accepting the fact that you can't just, you know, snap your fingers and everything's going to be clean. So first of all, I would say that some way that policymakers could build that in is by having that acceptance of the actual system and the energy system itself. And the second thing is, like having these holistic perspectives on the energy transition itself, like I was talking about the Environmental Coalition and the Labor Justice Coalition, right? And if you think about it at the surface, an EJ activist would only see the environmental justice side. We would not want to focus on this is a set of people losing their jobs and and that's that's fair. But. Having that holistic perspective where you're acknowledging these two sides of the story helps, because it's you can build provisions to ameliorate the kind of suffering or the problems that will be created in the process there will be somebody who has to bear the cost of the transition. But the question is, are we building in enough provisions to sort of address that, and are we kind of trying to protect the people who we are going to be exploiting in the process?And the other thing that I think is a little bit personal to me because of the dissertation work and my own research, is the way we define things and policies. I think we need, as like as societ, we need to have clearer definitions of who we seek to benefit. And only when you have these clear definitions of who you seek to benefit can you actually measure if you've been impacting these people or not, like just having these broad, losey-goosey ideas of I have a program that should benefit environmentally disadvantaged communities. What does that mean? Who are you talking about? And that, I think, is a very important aspect as well. And the other thing I want to talk about is, like, humility, because I feel like we will learn a lot from our mistakes as this transition goes on. And I'm hopeful that we will, as policy makers, be able to, like, kind of, you know, take a step back and reflect on what went wrong. For example, bills where they have not built in just transition provisions are they are being able to see how coal communities have lost revenues and have lost have had to, like, do a lot of things in terms of, like, shutting down public schools. So those spaces policy makers can actually have that moment of reckoning and realize that, hey, maybe we made a mistake and we should try to change this the next time. So having that humility, I think, is incredibly important as well. But yeah, those are my high horse comments. So you mentioned the Inflation Reduction Act, and anybody living in the US, whether you know it or not, your community is being touched by this in some way. It was a massive, massive spending bill. Have you seen this approach in the IRA? Have you seen a justice-oriented approach? And if not, where is it lacking? So yes and no, IRA, I mean, I'm so incredibly amazed by it for so many different reasons, like it has this focus on low-middle income communities. It has a focus on electrifying tribal regions. It has that. It has a whole tribal electrification program, and it has like in these tax credits, investment tax credits, and production tax credits for energy communities. So specifically, the communities that have lost revenue due to coal plant closures or coal mine closures, and so they are kind of target like, you know, talking about the right groups of people, and they're targeting the right kind of issues in that sense, like encouraging the production of clean energy in these areas, or workforce development in these spaces. And there's also that whole chunk of Environment and Climate Justice block grants under the IRA, which are meant for specifically disadvantaged communities and community-based organizations in these areas, can apply to these grants for all things from like workforce development to clean energy technology development to climate resilience. It's, I mean, it's a huge set of sources to kind of A), reduce greenhouse gasses, and B), be able to kind of harness the potential of the clean energy transition. So from that perspective, I really like the IRA and the way it's focusing on people who need to be focused on honestly. But again, this is the same thing that I just talked about, the way we define things. So the IRA itself has, it doesn't have, like, a consistent definition of what is disadvantage and what is environmental justice communities or low income communities, like some places, they are using a particular definition based on a particular tax credit. Other places they are not, and even in the environmental justice Block Grant, environmental and climate justice block grant itself, program itself, they have, they say that they will use a definition by the that is being used by the Justice 40. The Council on Environmental Quality has that screen tool where they are basically identifying disadvantaged areas. But they also say that EPA has yet to finalize how we will define disadvantaged communities for this program. So I think that's my one of my icky things that I don't like about it is that when you don't define there is a lot of room for people to sort of exploit and pretend like they're doing good work when they're not. And I mean, of course, it remains to be seen how much people will be able to exploit this, but I think that that is something that makes me very uncomfortable about it. And I also think there is this one aspect of the IRA which is a little interesting. I haven't read a little bit. I haven't read more about it, and I really want to, but it's about how, if, uh. So the Department of Interior, I think, has to give out certain acreage of land in oil and gas leasing for being able to give offshore and onshore wind and solar development rights. So you are encouraging production of oil and gas in a way. And that's, yeah, that's a little I'm still trying to understand. Why has that been said, and why is that being done? Because I'm sure there is some logic somewhere deep inside, and I'm hoping there is, but I think, yeah, that and this definition thing, like, it's the same thing, if, in fact, I mean, sorry about the off-topicness, but the Weatherization Assistance Program that also, like, there was this work done by Dominic Bernard and Tony Reems, and they have actually documented how these programs that are supposed to assist low income households with their energy burdens and alleviate energy party, they don't use a definition at the end of the day about who's energy poor. And because they don't do that, you can't just say anybody falling below 80% of area median income is LMI, because that's not what being energy poor is about. It's about a lot of different facets. So if you choose to define it by this one income based category or criterion, you're not you're not doing a good job first of all. And yes, in that sense, the Justice body tools and this EJ screen, they are kind of holistic in the way they bring in climate burdens and environment burdens. But again, if you don't have a consistent definition throughout an act, there's so much wiggle room to do not good things, is how I'd say it.Brian Bienkowski So it sounds like the IRA has some good aspects to it, and we've we actually talked to Jalan Newsome, I believe, who is on the Council of Environmental Quality. And she talked at length about Justice40 I would encourage listeners to listen to that and then listen to this again. Listen to most response. But you know, outside of the IRA, have you seen, you know, countries, states, municipalities, towns, villages, anything that are embarking on the clean energy transition in a way that you see as equitable and just, and if so, can you talk about it a little bit?Mokshda Kaul So I'm not from Illinois. I have no relationship with Illinois. This is not sponsored by Illinois. I really love CEJA! I think it's really cool. And I know I'm probably missing a chunk of things. And I'm not saying it's perfect. Please, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that the way they have been able to bring like environmental justice and the provisions for labor justice, like fossil fuel labor justice in together at the same time is incredible, in my opinion! And they have so this is what I meant earlier, when I was saying about job creation, because what they have done is clean energy jobs are going to be created, and they're going to be union jobs. They're going to have prevailing wage standards, and they are also going to be a section of them is going to be devoted only to environmental justice communities. So you are kind of doing that, two words, one stone thing, and I think that's incredible. And the other thing I love, love about CEJA is they did this thing called the "Listen Lead Share" sessions. And I know no one can see this, but has to spark in my eye when I talk about the Listen Lead Share sessions. But the Listen LeadSshare sessions were basically this kind of listening session situation where smaller Bipoc community organizations were leading these listening sessions within Illinois, trying to collect opinions, not just opinion, but experiences and what people want in like an energy justice kind of a way from illinoisians, just to understand what is it that is bothering the people. And I wish I had the link for it, but when the bill actually came out there is he's the head of elevate. I can't remember his name right now. Really love the guy. I don't know why my brain's blanking on it, but he actually read out pieces from these listening sessions where local Illinoisans had cited concerns and what had made its way into the legislation actually, so actual people's opinions were there. And I just, I find that so amazing, like, that's what I mean by accurate representation. And the other thing that I found very cool about CEJA is they have provisions for returning citizens in these clean energy jobs. And that's some that's a, like, a huge chunk of population that we tend to miss when we talk about justice issues. And the reason they had that was because they used to have these zoom based, like, Zoom-Room based sessions where they tried to get people to talk about what's going on. And there was this one guy. He was like a representative. He was a returning citizen himself, and he was a representative for like a group, and he actually was like, You know what, we need provisions from people like me. And they bought that in, and they built that in. So it's incredible the way they have been able to sort of bring this to fruition. I mean, I'm sure implementation stages are you. Infamous for how things go wrong, but in just the way the act is written and the way it was brought together, I am so amazed, and I'm in love.Brian Bienkowski And what is that acronym? You said it's CEJA, What is that acronym? So if people wanted to check it out, yeah,Mokshda Kaul actually, you know what? I'm going to make sure I'm doing this right, because CEJA there was a CEJA proposed by the environment coalition, and then there was a final CEJA that was passed. And those two had different acronyms, but Climate and Equitable Jobs Act is how the bill that actually passed. And yeah, that's the one that was signed by the governor. And give me one second, I want to find the name of the person from Elevate, because he's really important and really cool, certainly, and I think he's like, worth mentioning if anyone's looking just one sec, Delmar. His name is Delmar Gillius, and he works for Elevate, and he was one of the few persons of color who is responsible for, like, actually, legislative negotiations as well. And he was incredible. And, yeah, it has been amazing to talk with all these folks that I've had a chance to talk to. And yes, again, not sponsored by Illinois. I just really love it.Brian Bienkowski Well, it's always nice to end on an optimistic note. And just to keep that theme, we have some fun, some fun, before we get you out of here. And thank you again, so much for this. I love talking to you about I think the energy conversation is so often missing nuance. People want to say "end" fossil fuels yesterday," or they want to say "we need fossil fuels forever," and just having nuance in that conversation is needed if we're going to get anywhere. So before we get out of here, I have a few rapid fire questions where you can just answer with one word or a phrase. My favorite comfort food is, I'llMokshda Kaul I'll have to explain this.Brian Bienkowski Go right ahead.Mokshda Kaul Okay, it's Haak, Rogan Josh and rice. Haak is collard greens. We blanch them. And Rogan Josh is a really spicy lamb curry. And these are all Kashmiri foods. So if any Kashmiri is listening, I'm representing us and and with rice and yogurt, of course, but the Indian kind of yogurt, not the Greek yogurt. I would Oh, my God. Like, I think I'm gonna make it today. I described and I was like, Yeah, well, it's been a while, maybe we should do this today.Brian Bienkowski If I had to try out a job other than my current one, it would beMokshda Kaul writing. I would love to be a fiction writer for the rest of my life.Brian Bienkowski And my dream vacation isMokshda Kaul my current dream vacation is Poland. Because Poland, Poland, however we pronounce it? because I really want to be in a place that has the mountains and the sea and all the history to it. Been wanting to go since before 2020 and now I don't know when will I go,Brian Bienkowski Are you just trying to like, like, like, kiss up to the host here? That is my so I am very, I am very, I never thought anybody would say Poland to that question, so I was supposed to go. And yes, so I am. My grandparents were immigrants from Poland to Detroit and other parts of Michigan. And so I was supposed to go in 2020 or 2021 and it was no, it must have been 2022 because it was right when a Ukraine was invaded, exactly there was, there was this tale of covid. So I waited, and then there was a war that started. So I have not gone because obviously it's so close to Ukraine. And I just, yeah, you know, but we had, we have a lot of genealogy we've done, so I'm trying to sketch out a trip to places where family was and is so very cool.Mokshda Kaul That is so cool! Yeah, I wanted to do this was my I love solo trips, and this was going to be my trip before grad school. But like I said, I started grad school in 2020 so by the time I could book the tickets, the world was shut down. So that was the start of it. And then just being in grad school, I really don't, I don't know if I had the time. And then the war happened, and so I just at that point, I was like, You know what? It's not destined for now. So I guess I'm gonna put it on the back burner.Brian Bienkowski We'll have to stay in touch. Hopefully one of us will get there. Maybe both of us will get there. And so I've been learning the language too, which a Slavic language, is not easy to learn when you are 41 years old. It is not soaking into my brain.Mokshda Kaul That's so interesting, because for Kashmiri, the problem is, it's, it is like from the Indian group of languages. But I don't know, I'm forgetting the word for it, but apparently it sounds a lot like Central American language, Central Asian languages, sorry. So there is, like, a, like, an influx of salvik. And Persian and like, so I have had a lot of friends who are from, like, Central Asia, be like, What did you say? So, like, language is, God. Like, yeah, I am very curious. That's a really cool thing to do, though, because it keeps your brain young. SoBrian Bienkowski it does, yes, it gets that other part of my brain that in music. So moksha. What is the last book that you read for fun? And you do not have to confine yourself to one word or a phrase here.Mokshda Kaul Okay, the last book I read was "Small things like these" by Claire O'keekin, I think what's her name? Very short, very spiffy, very sad. Loved it. And I also listened to audiobooks. So the last audiobook I listened to was Untamed by Glennon Doyle. So yeah, both of those were amazing. And small things like these was just I finished it in a day because it was so well written and so quick. I was like, wow, I need to I'm dropping everything.Brian Bienkowski I love books like that. They are the they are the best. Well, moksha. Thank you so much for your time, for your intelligence, your wit. I really like talking to you about these things and beyond. And just as a side note, you always seem, I know you say you're a pessimist, but you always seem happy and inject humor and lightness, and it's really just lights up a room, and it lit up this call. So thank you so much for being here, and I hope we can have you on again soon.Mokshda Kaul Yeah, thank you so much. This was really wonderful to talk to you.